Question:
Thank you, for such a great parallel illustration of the ridiculousness of all that. G
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – communication, so pecked out: "Ok Gary for once, I might actually look into a suggestion but why don’t you highlite some points" Highlight points? No. Actually, hell no. Hey, why can’t ya just use one of those yellow Sanford markers and highlight the main points in your posts? Oh, they’re ALL main parts? I see, said the blind man, to the deaf dog….. — Elliott remove yourshoes to email http://www.unitedmedia.com/creators/ballardst/
Response:
"Ok Gary for once, I might actually look into a suggestion but why don’t you highlite some points" Steve, that reads like you are doing me a favor by checking out something I took the time to a) make you aware of b) summarize its relevance to your situation c) offered to PAY for. Do you want me to come to Philadelphia (out of the question, unless an airplane stop…) and put it into the tape player too? Make you some coffee? Lord have mercy. Item "c" is off the table, btw. If it’s not worth 11 bucks to you, to gain some enlightenment, why should it be worth it to me? The only person who cares (ostensibly) about whether you get better or not, ultimately, is YOU. I will be fine either way. Highlight points? No. Actually, hell no. Good day. G
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cognitive has nothing to do with co-dependency. An excellent book for children of "low-functionning families" (another term for dysfunctional family) is Finding Balance: 12 Steps to Interdependence and Joyful Living by Terry Kellogg and Marvel Harrison. Skip the introductory first couple chapters, and get right to the discussions about codependence, the "codependent polar bear" is an excellent look at the results of the damage from non-affirming parents shows itself in adult behavior. That book would be preferable to have in paperback, so you can refer to it easily. Ok Gary for once, I might actually look into a suggestion but why don’t you highlite some points… The item I wanted to send was "Feel the Fear and do it Anyway" audio abridged edition. An absolutely excellent discussion of the existential aspects of fear/anxiety/worry and has some just really profound insight into the (often very easy) ways to combat this problem in everyday life. Gary this is why we should be here. One ,good that you are recommending things. But lets assume concentration in reading a book on these things , comes after why the book is worth reading. Care to touch on these issues. Codependency comes about when people who act out whether because they never had a good inner dialgue or got reaffirmation depends on others for their reaffirmation. or their sense on who they are. The real question is , since we all get a sense of self based on many things, one of which might be how others perceive us, what exactly can we pinpoint about condependents that makes this process over the edge? The answer is Gary, their inability to perceive often enough past themselves…Its almost like they have to focus on wrong behaviour to feel a sense of themselves instead of recreating healthier life. Your childhood may have sucked. Both people I know from there actually, BOTH of them had scary families. I had a moderately scary family, but managed to make it out past that little town. Families who appeared functional tended not to be, in terms of results anyway. I entered therapy in 1990,and still go, in fact have an appointment this morning. I still learn things and enjoy going. Ok This may shed some light on a recurring theme – I was quite unhappy with many aspects of my last employment situation, was telling the shrink about it all, book chapter and verse, right down to the last detail. He finally said, "Well Gary, it looks like what you’re going to have to do is (a) decide what exactly it is that you’re trying to accomplish there, and (b) if that is possible to do, and if so, how? His questions hit rather hard, because I quickly realized that he was speaking of a governmental structure that was not about to change for me, and what I wanted (even though it was legitimate as legitimate could be) was not something that I could reasonably expect to accomplish. Sort of like banging one’s head into a brick wall. I watch you do this same sort of thing often, by insisting that people "talk about the things that make them anxious"..’*There are probably as many reasons people don’t talk about .it as there are different posters on the group* and those reasons are? denial? maybe they have their reasons? G Oh sure but I guess if you really want to come down to it. and you really want to discuss important issues, one might be more concerned with these reasons. I can only watch a soap opera for so long. . Talking about he said she said, is interesting for so long.Unfortunately my question to myself is how long can I be poisoned without doing anything about it? "steve" G Item two in your discussion: There are some presentation difficulties that make it hard to work with. Initially, it’s about "in relationships", then segue straight into "in love, try to see the illogical codependence". Couple quick points: First Gary this came off the top of my head. I a) In a situation where there is ACTUAL love, there will not BE co-dependence. They are mutually exclusive. Codependence involves lack of relationship with the self. Maybe, you could be right? I am not sure of literal meaning gary but maybe I was talking literally , as in being dependent on each other in healthy way as in love . in psychological terms it means a dysfucntional relationship with almost everything , yourself , others etc. I The following taken off a website: Actually the term "Codependence" is an inaccurate and somewhat misleading term for the phenomenon it has come to describe. A more accurate term would be something like outer-dependence, or external dependence."The point that I am making is that our understanding of Codependence has evolved to realizing that this is not just about some dysfunctional families, our very role models, our prototypes, are dysfunctional. Our traditional cultural concepts of what a man is, of what a woman is, are twisted, distorted, almost comically bloated stereotypes of what masculine and feminine really are." Gary the word codependent is quite confusing to me and many others, or can be. This does not mean cognitive is better though. I guess my definition in negative sense is Codependent in the negative sense generally speaking is pretty much loss of self in forfeiture to another..In a negative way, its bad behaviour that is substaniated by another . Its like dsyfunction, and its like almost bound to fail. To others it looks great maybe but like in my family and maybe others it can’t be too enriching. or too sustaining. because its based on loss of self and doing what is right. or healthy and in addition its fortified over and over by another allowing it to continue so its especially damaging. Kids from this kind of family are just as likely to see the wrong connections. I am defining this all to myself too .. Without an actual and REAL relationship with one’s "self", one cannot possibly have an actual and real relationship with anyone else, much less the much higher evolved level of relationship called "love". Well I meant if we are dependent on the right things from one anothers and its given back thats what I mean by healthy relationships or healthy socieites or love. It might not be codependent in the theraputic setting but thats what I meant. of course one must be in touch with one self to give and receive in relationship. .. b) steve
Response:
Precisely the reason for my suggestion on the audio-discussion. It’s really about personal empowerment. "Unfortunately my question to myself is how long can I be poisoned without doing anything about it?" We’ve all been asking this question Steve. I’m trying to cause the answer to be something besides "till they plant me in the ground". www.amazon.com Audio Book: Title = "Feel the Fear and Do it Anyway" Author – Dr. Susan Jeffers Get the "ABRIDGED version" – do not get the one with four audio tapes. Just get the one that contains ONE tape – it is concise, and gets to the point without being too brief. It’s about 11 bucks. The price of a couple Totinos pies, I’m guessin’. G
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cognitive has nothing to do with co-dependency. An excellent book for children of "low-functionning families" (another term for dysfunctional family) is Finding Balance: 12 Steps to Interdependence and Joyful Living by Terry Kellogg and Marvel Harrison. Skip the introductory first couple chapters, and get right to the discussions about codependence, the "codependent polar bear" is an excellent look at the results of the damage from non-affirming parents shows itself in adult behavior. That book would be preferable to have in paperback, so you can refer to it easily. Ok Gary for once, I might actually look into a suggestion but why don’t you highlite some points… The item I wanted to send was "Feel the Fear and do it Anyway" audio abridged edition. An absolutely excellent discussion of the existential aspects of fear/anxiety/worry and has some just really profound insight into the (often very easy) ways to combat this problem in everyday life. Gary this is why we should be here. One ,good that you are recommending things. But lets assume concentration in reading a book on these things , comes after why the book is worth reading. Care to touch on these issues. Codependency comes about when people who act out whether because they never had a good inner dialgue or got reaffirmation depends on others for their reaffirmation. or their sense on who they are. The real question is , since we all get a sense of self based on many things, one of which might be how others perceive us, what exactly can we pinpoint about condependents that makes this process over the edge? The answer is Gary, their inability to perceive often enough past themselves…Its almost like they have to focus on wrong behaviour to feel a sense of themselves instead of recreating healthier life. Your childhood may have sucked. Both people I know from there actually, BOTH of them had scary families. I had a moderately scary family, but managed to make it out past that little town. Families who appeared functional tended not to be, in terms of results anyway. I entered therapy in 1990,and still go, in fact have an appointment this morning. I still learn things and enjoy going. Ok This may shed some light on a recurring theme – I was quite unhappy with many aspects of my last employment situation, was telling the shrink about it all, book chapter and verse, right down to the last detail. He finally said, "Well Gary, it looks like what you’re going to have to do is (a) decide what exactly it is that you’re trying to accomplish there, and (b) if that is possible to do, and if so, how? His questions hit rather hard, because I quickly realized that he was speaking of a governmental structure that was not about to change for me, and what I wanted (even though it was legitimate as legitimate could be) was not something that I could reasonably expect to accomplish. Sort of like banging one’s head into a brick wall. I watch you do this same sort of thing often, by insisting that people "talk about the things that make them anxious"..’*There are probably as many reasons people don’t talk about .it as there are different posters on the group* and those reasons are? denial? maybe they have their reasons? G Oh sure but I guess if you really want to come down to it. and you really want to discuss important issues, one might be more concerned with these reasons. I can only watch a soap opera for so long. . Talking about he said she said, is interesting for so long.Unfortunately my question to myself is how long can I be poisoned without doing anything about it? "steve" G Item two in your discussion: There are some presentation difficulties that make it hard to work with. Initially, it’s about "in relationships", then segue straight into "in love, try to see the illogical codependence". Couple quick points: First Gary this came off the top of my head. I a) In a situation where there is ACTUAL love, there will not BE co-dependence. They are mutually exclusive. Codependence involves lack of relationship with the self. Maybe, you could be right? I am not sure of literal meaning gary but maybe I was talking literally , as in being dependent on each other in healthy way as in love . in psychological terms it means a dysfucntional relationship with almost everything , yourself , others etc. I The following taken off a website: Actually the term "Codependence" is an inaccurate and somewhat misleading term for the phenomenon it has come to describe. A more accurate term would be something like outer-dependence, or external dependence."The point that I am making is that our understanding of Codependence has evolved to realizing that this is not just about some dysfunctional families, our very role models, our prototypes, are dysfunctional. Our traditional cultural concepts of what a man is, of what a woman is, are twisted, distorted, almost comically bloated stereotypes of what masculine and feminine really are." Gary the word codependent is quite confusing to me and many others, or can be. This does not mean cognitive is better though. I guess my definition in negative sense is Codependent in the negative sense generally speaking is pretty much loss of self in forfeiture to another..In a negative way, its bad behaviour that is substaniated by another . Its like dsyfunction, and its like almost bound to fail. To others it looks great maybe but like in my family and maybe others it can’t be too enriching. or too sustaining. because its based on loss of self and doing what is right. or healthy and in addition its fortified over and over by another allowing it to continue so its especially damaging. Kids from this kind of family are just as likely to see the wrong connections. I am defining this all to myself too .. Without an actual and REAL relationship with one’s "self", one cannot possibly have an actual and real relationship with anyone else, much less the much higher evolved level of relationship called "love". Well I meant if we are dependent on the right things from one anothers and its given back thats what I mean by healthy relationships or healthy socieites or love. It might not be codependent in the theraputic setting but thats what I meant. of course one must be in touch with one self to give and receive in relationship. .. b) steve
Response:
Cognitive has nothing to do with co-dependency. An excellent book for children of "low-functionning families" (another term for dysfunctional family) is Finding Balance: 12 Steps to Interdependence and Joyful Living by Terry Kellogg and Marvel Harrison. Skip the introductory first couple chapters, and get right to the discussions about codependence, the "codependent polar bear" is an excellent look at the results of the damage from non-affirming parents shows itself in adult behavior. That book would be preferable to have in paperback, so you can refer to it easily. The item I wanted to send was "Feel the Fear and do it Anyway" audio abridged edition. An absolutely excellent discussion of the existential aspects of fear/anxiety/worry and has some just really profound insight into the (often very easy) ways to combat this problem in everyday life. Your childhood may have sucked. Both people I know from there actually, BOTH of them had scary families. I had a moderately scary family, but managed to make it out past that little town. Families who appeared functional tended not to be, in terms of results anyway. I entered therapy in 1990,and still go, in fact have an appointment this morning. I still learn things and enjoy going. This may shed some light on a recurring theme – I was quite unhappy with many aspects of my last employment situation, was telling the shrink about it all, book chapter and verse, right down to the last detail. He finally said, "Well Gary, it looks like what you’re going to have to do is (a) decide what exactly it is that you’re trying to accomplish there, and (b) if that is possible to do, and if so, how? His questions hit rather hard, because I quickly realized that he was speaking of a governmental structure that was not about to change for me, and what I wanted (even though it was legitimate as legitimate could be) was not something that I could reasonably expect to accomplish. Sort of like banging one’s head into a brick wall. I watch you do this same sort of thing often, by insisting that people "talk about the things that make them anxious"..’*There are probably as many reasons people don’t talk about .it as there are different posters on the group* maybe they have their reasons? G
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "steve" G Item two in your discussion: There are some presentation difficulties that make it hard to work with. Initially, it’s about "in relationships", then segue straight into "in love, try to see the illogical codependence". Couple quick points: First Gary this came off the top of my head. I a) In a situation where there is ACTUAL love, there will not BE co-dependence. They are mutually exclusive. Codependence involves lack of relationship with the self. Maybe, you could be right? I am not sure of literal meaning gary but maybe I was talking literally , as in being dependent on each other in healthy way as in love . in psychological terms it means a dysfucntional relationship with almost everything , yourself , others etc. I The following taken off a website: Actually the term "Codependence" is an inaccurate and somewhat misleading term for the phenomenon it has come to describe. A more accurate term would be something like outer-dependence, or external dependence."The point that I am making is that our understanding of Codependence has evolved to realizing that this is not just about some dysfunctional families, our very role models, our prototypes, are dysfunctional. Our traditional cultural concepts of what a man is, of what a woman is, are twisted, distorted, almost comically bloated stereotypes of what masculine and feminine really are." Gary the word codependent is quite confusing to me and many others, or can be. This does not mean cognitive is better though. I guess my definition in negative sense is Codependent in the negative sense generally speaking is pretty much loss of self in forfeiture to another..In a negative way, its bad behaviour that is substaniated by another . Its like dsyfunction, and its like almost bound to fail. To others it looks great maybe but like in my family and maybe others it can’t be too enriching. or too sustaining. because its based on loss of self and doing what is right. or healthy and in addition its fortified over and over by another allowing it to continue so its especially damaging. Kids from this kind of family are just as likely to see the wrong connections. I am defining this all to myself too .. Without an actual and REAL relationship with one’s "self", one cannot possibly have an actual and real relationship with anyone else, much less the much higher evolved level of relationship called "love". Well I meant if we are dependent on the right things from one anothers and its given back thats what I mean by healthy relationships or healthy socieites or love. It might not be codependent in the theraputic setting but thats what I meant. of course one must be in touch with one self to give and receive in relationship. .. b) steve
Response:
Cognitive has nothing to do with co-dependency. An excellent book for children of "low-functionning families" (another term for dysfunctional family) is Finding Balance: 12 Steps to Interdependence and Joyful Living by Terry Kellogg and Marvel Harrison. Skip the introductory first couple chapters, and get right to the discussions about codependence, the "codependent polar bear" is an excellent look at the results of the damage from non-affirming parents shows itself in adult behavior. That book would be preferable to have in paperback, so you can refer to it easily.
Ok Gary for once, I might actually look into a suggestion but why don’t you highlite some points… The item I wanted to send was "Feel the Fear and do it Anyway" audio abridged edition. An absolutely excellent discussion of the existential aspects of fear/anxiety/worry and has some just really profound insight into the (often very easy) ways to combat this problem in everyday life.
Gary this is why we should be here. One ,good that you are recommending things. But lets assume concentration in reading a book on these things , comes after why the book is worth reading. Care to touch on these issues. Codependency comes about when people who act out whether because they never had a good inner dialgue or got reaffirmation depends on others for their reaffirmation. or their sense on who they are. The real question is , since we all get a sense of self based on many things, one of which might be how others perceive us, what exactly can we pinpoint about condependents that makes this process over the edge? The answer is Gary, their inability to perceive often enough past themselves…Its almost like they have to focus on wrong behaviour to feel a sense of themselves instead of recreating healthier life. Your childhood may have sucked. Both people I know from there actually, BOTH of them had scary families. I had a moderately scary family, but managed to make it out past that little town. Families who appeared functional tended not to be, in terms of results anyway. I entered therapy in 1990,and still go, in fact have an appointment this morning. I still learn things and enjoy going.
Ok This may shed some light on a recurring theme – I was quite unhappy with many aspects of my last employment situation, was telling the shrink about it all, book chapter and verse, right down to the last detail. He finally said, "Well Gary, it looks like what you’re going to have to do is (a) decide what exactly it is that you’re trying to accomplish there, and (b) if that is possible to do, and if so, how? His questions hit rather hard, because I quickly realized that he was speaking of a governmental structure that was not about to change for me, and what I wanted (even though it was legitimate as legitimate could be) was not something that I could reasonably expect to accomplish. Sort of like banging one’s head into a brick wall. I watch you do this same sort of thing often, by insisting that people "talk about the things that make them anxious"..’*There are probably as many reasons people don’t talk about .it as there are different posters on the group*
and those reasons are? denial? maybe they have their reasons? G
Oh sure but I guess if you really want to come down to it. and you really want to discuss important issues, one might be more concerned with these reasons. I can only watch a soap opera for so long. . Talking about he said she said, is interesting for so long.Unfortunately my question to myself is how long can I be poisoned without doing anything about it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "steve" G Item two in your discussion: There are some presentation difficulties that make it hard to work with. Initially, it’s about "in relationships", then segue straight into "in love, try to see the illogical codependence". Couple quick points: First Gary this came off the top of my head. I a) In a situation where there is ACTUAL love, there will not BE co-dependence. They are mutually exclusive. Codependence involves lack of relationship with the self. Maybe, you could be right? I am not sure of literal meaning gary but maybe I was talking literally , as in being dependent on each other in healthy way as in love . in psychological terms it means a dysfucntional relationship with almost everything , yourself , others etc. I The following taken off a website: Actually the term "Codependence" is an inaccurate and somewhat misleading term for the phenomenon it has come to describe. A more accurate term would be something like outer-dependence, or external dependence."The point that I am making is that our understanding of Codependence has evolved to realizing that this is not just about some dysfunctional families, our very role models, our prototypes, are dysfunctional. Our traditional cultural concepts of what a man is, of what a woman is, are twisted, distorted, almost comically bloated stereotypes of what masculine and feminine really are." Gary the word codependent is quite confusing to me and many others, or can be. This does not mean cognitive is better though. I guess my definition in negative sense is Codependent in the negative sense generally speaking is pretty much loss of self in forfeiture to another..In a negative way, its bad behaviour that is substaniated by another . Its like dsyfunction, and its like almost bound to fail. To others it looks great maybe but like in my family and maybe others it can’t be too enriching. or too sustaining. because its based on loss of self and doing what is right. or healthy and in addition its fortified over and over by another allowing it to continue so its especially damaging. Kids from this kind of family are just as likely to see the wrong connections. I am defining this all to myself too .. Without an actual and REAL relationship with one’s "self", one cannot possibly have an actual and real relationship with anyone else, much less the much higher evolved level of relationship called "love". Well I meant if we are dependent on the right things from one anothers and its given back thats what I mean by healthy relationships or healthy socieites or love. It might not be codependent in the theraputic setting but thats what I meant. of course one must be in touch with one self to give and receive in relationship. .. b) steve
Response:
"steve" G Item two in your discussion: There are some presentation difficulties that make it hard to work with. Initially, it’s about "in relationships", then segue straight into "in love, try to see the illogical codependence". Couple quick points: First Gary this came off the top of my head. I a) In a situation where there is ACTUAL love, there will not BE co-dependence. They are mutually exclusive. Codependence involves lack of relationship with the self.
Maybe, you could be right? I am not sure of literal meaning gary but maybe I was talking literally , as in being dependent on each other in healthy way as in love . in psychological terms it means a dysfucntional relationship with almost everything , yourself , others etc. I The following taken off a website: Actually the term "Codependence" is an inaccurate and somewhat misleading term for the phenomenon it has come to describe. A more accurate term would be something like outer-dependence, or external dependence."The point that I am making is that our understanding of Codependence has evolved to realizing that this is not just about some dysfunctional families, our very role models, our prototypes, are dysfunctional. Our traditional cultural concepts of what a man is, of what a woman is, are twisted, distorted, almost comically bloated stereotypes of what masculine and feminine really are." Gary the word codependent is quite confusing to me and many others, or can be. This does not mean cognitive is better though. I guess my definition in negative sense is Codependent in the negative sense generally speaking is pretty much loss of self in forfeiture to another..In a negative way, its bad behaviour that is substaniated by another . Its like dsyfunction, and its like almost bound to fail. To others it looks great maybe but like in my family and maybe others it can’t be too enriching. or too sustaining. because its based on loss of self and doing what is right. or healthy and in addition its fortified over and over by another allowing it to continue so its especially damaging. Kids from this kind of family are just as likely to see the wrong connections. I am defining this all to myself too .. Without an actual and REAL relationship with one’s "self", one cannot possibly have an actual and real relationship with anyone else, much less the much higher evolved level of relationship called "love".
Well I meant if we are dependent on the right things from one anothers and its given back thats what I mean by healthy relationships or healthy socieites or love. It might not be codependent in the theraputic setting but thats what I meant. of course one must be in touch with one self to give and receive in relationship. .. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – b) steve
Response:
Steve, I hate to break my own damn rules, but I think I just will anyway. As was said, it’s anarchy here, I can do what I want. Apparently on my friend’s computer, I can still see you. So fine, for today, Steve will exist in my world for a couple minutes. I do hate what you said, but I will suspend judgment for a couple of minutes, and be polite – if for no other reason than simply to show that I can.
assuming everyone is equal, I am eternally grateful .ok? Item number one in your discussion was actually not too bad. Insecure kids who were raised by insecure, illogical adults (who probably had children in order to try to make their lives "normal" or "better" by some prevalent definition at the time –
wait where did I say that? Most times people have kids because they want sex, planned kids probably comes third . I am willing to bet most kids get fked because their parents didn’t really want them or once they had them were not prepared to know what to do. only to find that the kids actually made life more complicated (who would have guessed??) and then acted out their annoyance/aggravation (even if only occasionally) –
I am sure all parents gets annoyed at sometime but we are not talking about that. In fact like I alluded to many times, the times I was in hospitals the parents were often timescrazier then the kids but at least they came to see their kids so we can assume about the ones that didn’t. or were never there. this does create a recipe for a child with incomplete maturation in some way or another. It may be a "feeling of being secure" that is lacking or it may be a "feeling of competence", or an "ability to trust others, trust the world, trust themselves, etc" or worst, I think, they can lack a feeling of "being connected to others". The results of that are disastrous.
Bingo and how many of these kids associate those things to their insecurity. Can I guess? SM A LL the vast majority will blame society or illogical conclusions or will hyper angry or will end up incarcerated or using drugs instead which gets me to the topic of cognitve therapy. Of all the people I know here , most never discuss these things so I take them for their word when they only concenterate mostly on the here and now. Unfortuantely like I tried to state, this leaves allot of things unconnected. Not all kids with anxiety or depression have very dysfucntional parents, but you should know if you have been in mental wards how soo much of this is truly interconnected. Co-dependency is a huge issue, and good for you to explore with willing others.
( ok so you want this (me) to die?) which shows Gary your a bit too reactive , as I never wanted too many people to die. Maybe child killers , not maybe definitely and people who committ atrocities but anyone here na. I just think these discussions are good at exposing people for who they really are , good or bad. I might be wrong sometimes but I am right often too but does it really really matter what I really think of you or your faults Na not really, Its interesting but thats it. It is a little bit more expansive than the definition implied here. Codependency is not so much about one’s relationship with any particular psycho individual (as is SO often discussed, everywhere) – but is more about an absence of relationship with the self.
Well Gary thats interesting and probably true but isn’t that the same thing. You put so much trust in someone you leave the part that introspects. One might be obsessed with health of a paricular part of body and husband and wife reassure that person even if its way past the line of normalcy. or smokes or takes drugs. .I think all these things are connected. The typical co-dependent individual exhibits a sort of polarity in their behavior…. One day they will be excessively concerned about pleasing others, the next day they will exhibit utter indifference with equal skill and internal discomfort. They don’t like this absence of a clear definition, but are never quite sure what to do about it.
I never heard this before. I really don’t know the exact sublte specifications or contradictions but the obvious stereotypes I tend to id. ( lurie and her husband come to mind but you were not here for a year or two to know that, and my mom and my dad) I do know they seem lost. But I am lost in my own life too. Who really knows exactly what is happening exactly. Whats well? Whats secure? Its all degrees …..at the end of day.. One day they will be extremely concerned with their well-being, spend 50 dollars on health food items, get a water purifier, etc. and the next day they will not even change clothes or brush their own teeth, generally illustrating a complete lack of willingness to care for the self. Again, polarity.
Gary again this is new to me . I am not saying its not true though. I hope your not confusing manic behavior or obsessions or lack of trust with codependency? I tend to want to obsess and over react and the next day not care one bit if I don’t fit in. But I don’t consider myself codependent. I might have a slightly borderline personality but its mostly based on anxiety.The real question is and I don’t want to get too complex , if one comes from codependent family and one cannot find anyone to be codependent with , does one feel alone or might want to drop out of life? All very interesting to think about. The key things are degrees and can one modify. or id this type of behviour or dependency. After all is said and done even successful relationships are dependent on somekind of codependency. So it all comes back to how secure and settled (not anxious) we can become if you come from this kind of environment… I got to go will come back to this later. bye. There is an – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – extensive list of these various polar opposites that abused kids exhibit, which I’d be glad to publish if you’d like. It might be quite illuminating, in fact I feel certain of that. As a matter totally aside, interest in protecting the physical and psychological safety of others, or simply telling truths with some diplomacy or tact – these things do not in and of themselves make one a "people pleaser". Consider also, what is the opposite of that? A "people displeaser"? How far is THAT going to take anyone? I submit that if one is going to err one way or the other, and the outcome counts (like at a job, where you make your money, or in interactions with friends) a little diplomacy never hurt anything. Sometimes saying one harmful thing can cause irreparable harm forever, in a relationship. I am sure that after I cussed you out quite completely the other day, you no longer feel exactly the same way, when considering me. This is true of all people. I did that because a) I felt like it b) There were no "stakes" involved, e.g. – you are not my employer, or close friend, so if you were verbally impaled and got angry as a result, the consequences are zero, for me. That having been said, I am not such an evil person that I cannot stand up and say that I should not have done that. I should NOT have done that. I apologize, it was not the right thing to do. That does not mean that I like you, I don’t. You do not like me either. That is ok. If I sat next to you on an airplane, I’d still be courteous, regardless. c) I failed to "self-modulate" my behavior, despite full capability of doing so. It is sort of like bitching about "no good parking spaces, and why do they have SO many handicapped spaces?" instead of saying "I’m just glad that i CAN walk from point A to point B and that I have a car at all". The equivalent here would have been (a) to do exactly what I did, and curse you out. vs. (b) saying "Gary, you have perfectly decent ability to filter through all of this crap, and you do not have to let your anger "make" you do or say anything, so just turn off the computer, and go have some good coffee, or some good sex with Jennifer." Obviously I "should" have chosen option B, but hindsight is always crystal clear, isn’t it? All humans fall short sometimes. You "could", by the way, choose to do this same thing, when considering whether or not to take out your anger on Elliott, etc.. You may dislike him, he may dislike you, but you have TOTAL choice over what to DO or SAY, always, always. What if the ONE person on earth who means THE MOST to you was killed by a fascist dictator? Do you think it might cause you some pain to be reminded of it? (I think it would) So why not just "let it all go" – forgive others. It is a very powerful act, to do so. Don’t believe me? Try it. If you want, I will (bona fide offer, absolutely) buy you an audio presentation that I think would change your life dramatically for the better. Establish an account with amazon.com, write a post called "Steve: Amazon Account" and tell the name of the account, so all who want to can contribute (that’s all they can do with it, by the way, nothing else) to your library (books, video, music) to your world of media. Amazon will even ship the item right to your mailbox, which you don’t have to disclose in the account – only Amazon knows that. The only thing I would ask in return, is that you actually listen to the audio presentation, when you have 45 minutes that are unlikely to be interrupted. I may cuss, be brutal at times, even hateful, but I also know how to assist. item 3 – no question item 4 – concur item 5 – "learn to deal with it" ? What does that mean? "Uh,sir, you’ve got schizophrenia, you’ll need to learn to deal with that…." I don’t think going to the past is something patients should spend tons of time
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If you want, I will (bona fide offer, absolutely) buy you an audio presentation that I think would change your life dramatically for the better. Establish an account with amazon.com, write a post called "Steve: Amazon Account" and tell the name of the account, so all who want to can contribute (that’s all they can do with it, by the way, nothing else) to your library (books, video, music) to your world of media. Amazon will even ship the item right to your mailbox, which you don’t have to disclose in the account – only Amazon knows that. The only thing I would ask in return, is that you actually listen to the audio presentation, when you have 45 minutes that are unlikely to be interrupted. I may cuss, be brutal at times, even hateful, but I also know how to assist.
Gary thats nice of you. You have a nice side too and your intelligent right? Two for three is not bad.. Ok I need around ten thousand dollars though and a room with a view if you really want to help me. …in say San Francisco or I will accept the coast of California… Seriously Gary , just tell me what the name of the cassette is called and seriously think about what I said to you about yourself. Its nice you want to help people and probably can in some ways but maybe you think you can do better for yourself also . ?. item 3 – no question item 4 – concur item 5 – "learn to deal with it" ? What does that mean? "Uh,sir, you’ve got schizophrenia, you’ll need to learn to deal with that…."
Its funny you mentioned that,lol but thats for another day. yes learning to deal with why one is anxious and do something other then then ask for prescription advice. . .. I don’t think going to the past is something patients should spend tons of time with. go there, learn whatever you can take froom it, and "move on". I prefer the word "advocate" over "fight" – fighting is consumptive, energy depleting, and ultimately anxiety provoking for many people.
Well do wonders ever cease? I know this from your answers and answers from others here. Your answer to me about depersonalization etc, was starting to make sense and so what are you saying, if it starts to not make sense but utlitmately its too complex for the moment, its useless or better to let go? I cordially disagree . ( probably because I am prejudiced) No not everyone had what happen to them like I did , but many people have it just as bad in different degrees of affects. item 6 – worth knowing – hmm, based on what? Your value systems?
truth based on what you know. How many times do we want to know someone because they look ok or because they have what we want or even because they resonate as being familiar? . but ultimately we don’t particularity trust or like whats inside. Its like you can choose fast sex or your can choose to get to know someone for right reasons. You can choose to befriend someone because they obviously want to do the right things and want to go over things. you have learned to evolve….and not just rely on perceptions. if that makes sense. ok Mine? Whose? Much of the content in item seven is biased toward your own value systems…. e.g. "the right things" – one person’s "right" is another’s "wrong" wish list. I already know what I want to send, but it’s a great place to send family and friends re. gift-giving occasions. Peace G
Geees your not done yet? lol about the tape just tell me whats on it. where to get it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Item two in your discussion: There are some presentation difficulties that make it hard to work with. Initially, it’s about "in relationships", then segue straight into "in love, try to see the illogical codependence". Couple quick points: a) In a situation where there is ACTUAL love, there will not BE co-dependence. They are mutually exclusive. Codependence involves lack of relationship with the self. Without an actual and REAL relationship with one’s "self", one cannot possibly have an actual and real relationship with anyone else, much less the much higher evolved level of relationship called "love". b)
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"assuming everyone is equal, I am eternally grateful" On a person’s highest level self, they know that everyone is equal. " I never heard this before." That’s what I’m here for, to broaden your horizons. G
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No,I’m not making any such confusion. Codependency,as i pointed out earlier, is not so much about relationship definitions with others, but is far more about a true lack of necessary relationship with the self.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, I hate to break my own damn rules, but I think I just will anyway. As was said, it’s anarchy here, I can do what I want. Apparently on my friend’s computer, I can still see you. So fine, for today, Steve will exist in my world for a couple minutes. I do hate what you said, but I will suspend judgment for a couple of minutes, and be polite – if for no other reason than simply to show that I can. assuming everyone is equal, I am eternally grateful .ok? Item number one in your discussion was actually not too bad. Insecure kids who were raised by insecure, illogical adults (who probably had children in order to try to make their lives "normal" or "better" by some prevalent definition at the time – wait where did I say that? Most times people have kids because they want sex, planned kids probably comes third . I am willing to bet most kids get fked because their parents didn’t really want them or once they had them were not prepared to know what to do. only to find that the kids actually made life more complicated (who would have guessed??) and then acted out their annoyance/aggravation (even if only occasionally) – I am sure all parents gets annoyed at sometime but we are not talking about that. In fact like I alluded to many times, the times I was in hospitals the parents were often timescrazier then the kids but at least they came to see their kids so we can assume about the ones that didn’t. or were never there. this does create a recipe for a child with incomplete maturation in some way or another. It may be a "feeling of being secure" that is lacking or it may be a "feeling of competence", or an "ability to trust others, trust the world, trust themselves, etc" or worst, I think, they can lack a feeling of "being connected to others". The results of that are disastrous.
well , can be if they don’t how to turn it around. Not only that, I think some parents want to fk their kids over so they seem better.The point is I have tried to focus on major issues here like how to turn those things around and not generalalities and pills , and instead I get personal inuendos. .You definitely make some sense sometimes but I feel in addition you take to personal attacks if they or I don’t argue exactly like you want .2. Believe it or not , I feel I am more positive then I use to b,e but can one suppose my distrust of govt is because of insecurity growing up? From distrust of not knowing they self or expectations of crazythings, tthat happened in my family (and let me tell you there were crazy and bad things). , can they automatically be then transferred to illogical conspiracies about what the govt is doing to me? ? The answer to that is to you maybe yes but to me my rationalizations are justified. I am unlike someone from dysfunctional family , who blames an entire people , or entire world for their misjustice and acts out or ends up on the street or in jail or on dope. I may have quirks but my reaction and anxiety to a govt that allows air to reach a certain saturation point of pollution that causes me to have hard time breathing only for that reason , is based on reality and specifics. I don’t then decide to take drugs or shoot the President, I do protest because for now I actually can’t redo a part of my life that I think I can have an effect on positively. Anyway without going over that again.. Perhaps I more then anyone might understand I know the differences. . I try to use logic and facts in making my case. I don’t understand some things sometimes but also I can’t change things even if I am aware of them. This is a first for me. So I get aggravated. I then see other things I don’t understand like how the US govt can’t beat back an enemy that has no air force or sophisticated communication systems. So I then might get very suspicious about what real control I have over my own situation. Maybe thats mistrust from childhood actually has made me keenly aware of real danger too. Mistrust in childhood doesn’t automatically assume one can’t decipher right from wrong. So I react and thus I still get anxious. Psychologically In my world in order to get to a certain point I had to redo things that made sense or saw truth. If I think a govt or leaders are killing me I am not about to sit still accepting it. If I think the press doesn’t ask why only ( virtually) the super rich get elected to office then excuse me if i think things are controlled. Anyway I could live with all that if I didn’t think theair was killing me faster then I think it should . There is an extensive list of these various polar opposites that abused kids exhibit, which I’d be glad to publish if you’d like. It might be quite illuminating, in fact I feel certain of that.
Well Gary then maybe you have a true vision of this. I am pretty lost with this polarity issue.Go ahead and explain this further cause I dont; understand all of it. I sense you have a personal reason for knowing about this? Maybe not.Psychologically my attention span is pretty narrow . My mom killer herself and allot of suffering and not only did I mistrust I also probably blamed myself. So the mind is a very very complex thing and I don’t know the reasons why codependents do what they do. I sense its probably because of depersonalization., lack of love? lack of true sense of being accepted for who they really are or like I said before because their personality developed from reacting to someone elses concerns instead of people worried about theres… ? I sometimes thnk my mom made no sense. Icould not connect. Shelike Lauri would not come clean why she was soo screwed up. I think she was successful in being saved by a father who loved saving people. and this seems logical to the world and this is whats insidiously bad about codependency. It actually doesnt seem so bad. ..? It worked, not particularily good or healthy but it works. If I can find someone to save like my first girlf friend, it might be ok and familiar but its not what I want anymore… its not a healthy two way relationship. What what have been better is for people like mom and other codependents to find themselves , to be who they should have been .if that makes sense. .My mom obviously didn’t have to work or do anything different but feel depressed . At the same time she did suffere from a medical condition that the medical industry could not treat ..postpartum soo you see how all these things are connected and why soo many people don’t want to go back..It could make you more loopy. In my case I try to focus on certain main points. I think I can depersonalize or dont’ want to take control of situations. I want no responsibility in bettering the situation because I think someone will come along and screw it up anyway. . and for this thought I must change. on some level maybe this is why cognitive stuff may work. I guess if you dont think about all this it wont get in the way. But in reality I think you got to deal with it. . So maybe people depersonalize because its the easiest thing to reduce stress. I remember when I was a litttle I depersonalized. I am not sure if this has anything to do with condependency though.Depersonalzationis a place where one goes to hope your brain freezes and comes back to life when all the pain is over.So my wish about wanting to go back and redo things like Bradshaw says is real and good. . Maybe there are no answers sometimes just variations of different answers. As a matter totally aside, interest in protecting the physical and psychological safety of others, or simply telling truths with some diplomacy or tact – these things do not in and of themselves make one a "people pleaser". Consider also, what is the opposite of that? A "people displeaser"?
I am talking when your a little kid and you have needs. Instead your ignored or yelled at for not always knowing when mom is depressed or to say the right things. Do it enough times and your being is broken, You might depersonalize or you might feel inadequate or you might learn to say what people want you to say…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How far is THAT going to take anyone? I submit that if one is going to err one way or the other, and the outcome counts (like at a job, where you make your money, or in interactions with friends) a little diplomacy never hurt anything. Sometimes saying one harmful thing can cause irreparable harm forever, in a relationship. I am sure that after I cussed you out quite completely the other day, you no longer feel exactly the same way, when considering me. This is true of all people. I did that because a) I felt like it b) There were no "stakes" involved, e.g. – you are not my employer, or close friend, so if you were verbally impaled and got angry as a result, the consequences are zero, for me. That having been said, I am not such an evil person that I cannot stand up and say that I should not have done that. I should NOT have done that. I apologize, it was not the right thing to do. That does not mean that I like you, I don’t. You do not like me either. That is ok. If I sat next to you on an airplane, I’d still be courteous, regardless. c) I failed to "self-modulate" my behavior, despite full capability of doing so. It is sort of like bitching about "no good parking spaces, and why do they have SO many handicapped spaces?" instead of saying "I’m just glad that i CAN walk from point A to point B and that I have a car at all". The equivalent here would have been (a) to do exactly what I did, and curse you out. vs. (b) saying
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Steve, I hate to break my own damn rules, but I think I just will anyway. As was said, it’s anarchy here, I can do what I want. Apparently on my friend’s computer, I can still see you. So fine, for today, Steve will exist in my world for a couple minutes. I do hate what you said, but I will suspend judgment for a couple of minutes, and be polite – if for no other reason than simply to show that I can. Item number one in your discussion was actually not too bad. Insecure kids who were raised by insecure, illogical adults (who probably had children in order to try to make their lives "normal" or "better" by some prevalent definition at the time – only to find that the kids actually made life more complicated (who would have guessed??) and then acted out their annoyance/aggravation (even if only occasionally) – this does create a recipe for a child with incomplete maturation in some way or another. It may be a "feeling of being secure" that is lacking or it may be a "feeling of competence", or an "ability to trust others, trust the world, trust themselves, etc" or worst, I think, they can lack a feeling of "being connected to others". The results of that are disastrous. Co-dependency is a huge issue, and good for you to explore with willing others. It is a little bit more expansive than the definition implied here. Codependency is not so much about one’s relationship with any particular psycho individual (as is SO often discussed, everywhere) – but is more about an absence of relationship with the self. The typical co-dependent individual exhibits a sort of polarity in their behavior…. One day they will be excessively concerned about pleasing others, the next day they will exhibit utter indifference with equal skill and internal discomfort. They don’t like this absence of a clear definition, but are never quite sure what to do about it. One day they will be extremely concerned with their well-being, spend 50 dollars on health food items, get a water purifier, etc. and the next day they will not even change clothes or brush their own teeth, generally illustrating a complete lack of willingness to care for the self. Again, polarity. There is an extensive list of these various polar opposites that abused kids exhibit, which I’d be glad to publish if you’d like. It might be quite illuminating, in fact I feel certain of that. As a matter totally aside, interest in protecting the physical and psychological safety of others, or simply telling truths with some diplomacy or tact – these things do not in and of themselves make one a "people pleaser". Consider also, what is the opposite of that? A "people displeaser"? How far is THAT going to take anyone? I submit that if one is going to err one way or the other, and the outcome counts (like at a job, where you make your money, or in interactions with friends) a little diplomacy never hurt anything. Sometimes saying one harmful thing can cause irreparable harm forever, in a relationship. I am sure that after I cussed you out quite completely the other day, you no longer feel exactly the same way, when considering me. This is true of all people. I did that because a) I felt like it b) There were no "stakes" involved, e.g. – you are not my employer, or close friend, so if you were verbally impaled and got angry as a result, the consequences are zero, for me. That having been said, I am not such an evil person that I cannot stand up and say that I should not have done that. I should NOT have done that. I apologize, it was not the right thing to do. That does not mean that I like you, I don’t. You do not like me either. That is ok. If I sat next to you on an airplane, I’d still be courteous, regardless. c) I failed to "self-modulate" my behavior, despite full capability of doing so. It is sort of like bitching about "no good parking spaces, and why do they have SO many handicapped spaces?" instead of saying "I’m just glad that i CAN walk from point A to point B and that I have a car at all". The equivalent here would have been (a) to do exactly what I did, and curse you out. vs. (b) saying "Gary, you have perfectly decent ability to filter through all of this crap, and you do not have to let your anger "make" you do or say anything, so just turn off the computer, and go have some good coffee, or some good sex with Jennifer." Obviously I "should" have chosen option B, but hindsight is always crystal clear, isn’t it? All humans fall short sometimes. You "could", by the way, choose to do this same thing, when considering whether or not to take out your anger on Elliott, etc.. You may dislike him, he may dislike you, but you have TOTAL choice over what to DO or SAY, always, always. What if the ONE person on earth who means THE MOST to you was killed by a fascist dictator? Do you think it might cause you some pain to be reminded of it? (I think it would) So why not just "let it all go" – forgive others. It is a very powerful act, to do so. Don’t believe me? Try it. If you want, I will (bona fide offer, absolutely) buy you an audio presentation that I think would change your life dramatically for the better. Establish an account with amazon.com, write a post called "Steve: Amazon Account" and tell the name of the account, so all who want to can contribute (that’s all they can do with it, by the way, nothing else) to your library (books, video, music) to your world of media. Amazon will even ship the item right to your mailbox, which you don’t have to disclose in the account – only Amazon knows that. The only thing I would ask in return, is that you actually listen to the audio presentation, when you have 45 minutes that are unlikely to be interrupted. I may cuss, be brutal at times, even hateful, but I also know how to assist. item 3 – no question item 4 – concur item 5 – "learn to deal with it" ? What does that mean? "Uh,sir, you’ve got schizophrenia, you’ll need to learn to deal with that…." I don’t think going to the past is something patients should spend tons of time with. go there, learn whatever you can take froom it, and "move on". I prefer the word "advocate" over "fight" – fighting is consumptive, energy depleting, and ultimately anxiety provoking for many people. item 6 – worth knowing – hmm, based on what? Your value systems? Mine? Whose? Much of the content in item seven is biased toward your own value systems…. e.g. "the right things" – one person’s "right" is another’s "wrong" list. I already know what I want to send, but it’s a great place to send family and friends re. gift-giving occasions. Peace G Item two in your discussion: There are some presentation difficulties that make it hard to work with. Initially, it’s about "in relationships", then segue straight into "in love, try to see the illogical codependence". Couple quick points: a) In a situation where there is ACTUAL love, there will not BE co-dependence. They are mutually exclusive. Codependence involves lack of relationship with the self. Without an actual and REAL relationship with one’s "self", one cannot possibly have an actual and real relationship with anyone else, much less the much higher evolved level of relationship called "love". b)
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1, Go over your family situation. Often very tense family situations provoke and promote flight or fight responses in brain. Over time , these responses become normal and expected. So in any situation , real stressful or not, a person might learn to over react or expect stressful situation and thus have too much adrenalin. The result : Anxiety or GAD. Often one has to redo self image even if and especially if good nurturing parents were not there. Here are some of my observations about dysfunctional parents. Kids often become people pleasers because as kids they learn to expect what to say based on parents illogical behaviour. You better learn to say the right and wrong things reactive to their prents needs only. Of course the kids needs or self image come last. This makes one insecure and in my eyes a people pleaser 2.In relationships, Try not to make the same mistakes as your family did so it doesn’t go on an on. In love try to see the illogical codependence. For instance, strong father role , very codependent maybe sick mom and passive. As a guy you might look for same type female , as a woman you might look for a guy who will empower your condependence or acting out. . Many many combinations including abuse, which is why often abuse runs in families. Little girls who see dominace and abuse MIGHT be attracted to this iniitially and get in same type relaitionships. Its better to see this pattern now or before it develops into adult life. 3. Don’t smoke : Learn from the tens of people and millions of studies. What they know now , its a drug. It can leave your system. Its that simple. I wish I knew this years before.The worse thing I ever did and it added to the already grief of trying to over come anxiety . 4. I would expect the same things people are told to do for a normal healthy life should also espeically be a concern for people with anxiety also. I am not sure I took up the health angle when I was 30, because I did so much damage eating junk and smoking cigs to overcompensate for anxiety. but whatever the cause its helped me stopped smoking and deal with the symptoms of anxiety : too big of a adrenalin response. and fast breathing and racing heart and too much energy at times . 5.If you have GAD learn to deal with it. you almost have to learn to monitor the excess energy with clear mind. Good therapist can help you go back in your past to help you sort it out and tell you ways to utilize proper breathing techniques.to relieve stress. Get into a good exercise program to relieve stress that way.Both things in my mind require clean air. Fight for clean air , it will even help your anxiety more then you realize 6. There are many things to eat that will help anxiety I believe and manythings not to eat also. 7. Learn to give yourself that which you missed. Love and concern for yourself and those worth knowing. Don’t love everyone because many people will use you or won’t understand functional people. Soo many people act our or in denial, find the people who have learned to do the right things
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If you had to lose one of your senses which one would it be and why? Jackie ~*~Sit and daydream, and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind~*~ ~~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm 
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I walked through that hospital door I was sewn up like a coat I got a smile from the bite of the wind Watched the fresh fall of snow I knew then that my life took a turn I felt strong and secure And with adhesive tape over my nose I felt almost demure Goodbye Sister Disco With your flashing trash lamps Goodbye Sister Disco And to your clubs and your tramps Goodbye Sister Disco My dancing’s left you behind Goodbye, now you’re solo Black plastic; deaf, dumb and blind Bye, goodbye Sister Disco, Now I go I go where the music where the music fits my soul And I, I will never let go, I’ll never let go ‘Til the echo of the street fight has dissolved I will choose nightmares and cold stormy seas I will take over your grief and disease I’ll stay beside you and comfort your soul When you are lonely and broken and old Now I walk with a man in my face Ooh, a woman in my hair I’ve got you all lookin’ out though my eyes My feet are a prayer Goodbye Sister Disco With your flashing trash lamps Goodbye Sister Disco And to your clubs and your tramps Goodbye Sister Disco My dancing’s left you behind Goodbye, now you’re solo Black plastic; deaf, dumb and blind 
) Donna 