Rocky horror story
Question:
Smoking: sure baffles me. the gals in my office see the cancer of the larynx cases and 3 of them smoke. Beats me. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com
Response:
"ENTconsult" <entcons…@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001006234424.09552.00001620@ng-ch1.aol.com… > Smoking: sure baffles me. the gals in my office see the cancer of the larynx > cases and 3 of them smoke. > Beats me. > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Baffles me too, and adding injury to insult, smoke is a huge irritant to my tinnitus level.–Mary
Response:
OK, but at least you now listen to your system, your body. The past is done, and the future WILL take care of itself. All any of us really have is the NOW> Andy, UK drummer (still doing a bit!) "……Then at 30 I just suddenly hit a wall, and – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> everything seems to have been going wrong with me ever since. Now I’m > a vegetarian (again), non-smoking, low-fat, low-salt, low-noise > middle-aged person, feeling old before his time, and never seem to be > out of the bloody doctor’s. I’m pretty sure if I’d looked after myself > in my 20’s I’d be in much better shape. But what do you do? Some of us > do this sort of thing, and very often we don;t come to our senses till > we get some palpable warning signs. Sometimes the warning signs come > too late……"
Response:
<griff…@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8qvmg8$4tm$1@nnrp1.deja.com… > There was an interesting item last night on a news programme > here in the UK.The station sent a presenter with an audiologist > to meet up with 4 youngsters [18 to 19 ] on Europe’s No 1 Holiday/party > destination ,the island if Ibiza,a sort of modern Gomorrah.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I’m really shocked by this experiment, using 400 kids as guinea pigs. I wonder how the audiologist could bear to be part of it. –Mary
Response:
> Their did seem to be an appreciation of possible damage but the > "it wont happen to me" syndrome prevails.
We’ve seen this attitude in recent posts on this list. > The exercise is part of a much wider survey into damage to > the hearing of 400 young people caused by loud music.
If the total number of people who’s hearing has been damaged by walkman’s and loud concerts were known, what would that number be? What would the number be for children who’s hearing will be damaged in the next ten years? How many of those children would recognize that their hearing did not have to be damaged and that the companies producing the walkman type devices and the bands producing the ear damaging sounds are responsible? Schools should begin educating children at a young age about the dangers of loud music to their ears and to their lives. This education should occur before the teen years. — Jack Rodgers There is a cure for tinnitus. Will someone please find it.
Response:
"Jack Rodgers" <jrodg…@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:B5F8F94A.21AE%jrodgers@bellsouth.net… > Schools should begin educating children at a young age about the dangers of > loud music to their ears and to their lives. This education should occur > before the teen years.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Schools and parents should be involved. You wouldn’t believe the hours spent on safe sex and drug education in the US…which is all very good. But there is a lot of repetition and room for working a "safe sound" campaign in. My kids won’t start a lawnmower or go to a concert without ear protection. They even complain about the volume of sound at movies. It no doubt helped to have a mom with two hearing aids around…along with a very easy rule–if the music SEEMS too loud, it probably is and down goes the volume. My audiologist would see the kids sometimes when I visited the office and he would back me up, as did my husband by showing the kids how to use headphones w/care. –Mary
Response:
Jack Rodgers <jrodg…@bellsouth.net> wrote: >Schools should begin educating children at a young age about the dangers of >loud music to their ears and to their lives. This education should occur >before the teen years.
…….. Hence, the "Dangerous Decibels" project co-sponsored by the Oregon Health Science University, the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry, and the American Tinnitus Association. It’s a pilot project in Oregon devoted to just those kinds of issues … with an eye to making it a national endeavor within five years. Meanwhile ATA has in a separate effort made great strides in getting tinnitus information into schools in Oregon (for starters) AND into textbooks nation-wide. smn Stephen M. Nagler, MD, FACS www.tinn.com The views expressed above are those of the author. Positions and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the American Tinnitus Association.
Response:
hgutn…@series2000.com (Howard N. Gutnick) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Within the last year I spent a weekend teaching a course in Wilmington >Delaware. On one weekend, there was a University of Delaware Sorority >having a spring formal. All the girls and their dates were very nicely >dressed and behaved. And about half of them, by my estimation, smoked. >As did my 22 yo son until about two years ago when he finally quit. As >I did for the four years that I was an undergraduate. >Now in the past decade or more when these kids were growing up, there >was no shortage of information and public health campaigns about the >effects of smoking on health. Yet many of them smoked, while maybe >only one person in my group of 40 adults smoked. >I hate to pessimisstic about these health education programs. They may >affect the behavior of one or two kids. But I’m afraid teenagers and >loud potentially damaging music are an inseparable mix. Kids think >that they are invincible and immortal, thus all of the many stupid and >dangerous things they try.
…….. Totally agree, Howard. That’s why ATA is sponsoring a couple of pilot educational projects with clearly defined outcomes measures on a more local level rather than starting out with a nation-wide effort that might represent a huge expenditure for negligible return … when funding is limited from the outset. smn Stephen M. Nagler, MD, FACS www.tinn.com The views expressed above are those of the author. Positions and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the American Tinnitus Association.
Response:
> I hate to pessimisstic about these health education programs. They may > affect the behavior of one or two kids. But I’m afraid teenagers and > loud potentially damaging music are an inseparable mix. Kids think > that they are invincible and immortal, thus all of the many stupid and > dangerous things they try.
I’m just as pessimistic but I would consider the saving of one or two (hundred?/thousand?) to be a worthy venture. The next step is to really put pressure on the industries and show how they are damaging people’s ears and the horror that can occur. It took decades to finally win a victory with the tobacco industry. But they strike back. The local quickstop now has an entire wall behind the two cash registers lined with cigarette cartons. You can’t buy anything without seeing 500 different cigarette packages. In Pennsylvania they sold liquor through state owned stores. You couldn’t buy it at a grocery store and certainly not at a gas station as you can in Florida. — Jack Rodgers There is a cure for tinnitus. Will someone please find it.
Response:
Within the last year I spent a weekend teaching a course in Wilmington Delaware. On one weekend, there was a University of Delaware Sorority having a spring formal. All the girls and their dates were very nicely dressed and behaved. And about half of them, by my estimation, smoked. As did my 22 yo son until about two years ago when he finally quit. As I did for the four years that I was an undergraduate. Now in the past decade or more when these kids were growing up, there was no shortage of information and public health campaigns about the effects of smoking on health. Yet many of them smoked, while maybe only one person in my group of 40 adults smoked. I hate to pessimisstic about these health education programs. They may affect the behavior of one or two kids. But I’m afraid teenagers and loud potentially damaging music are an inseparable mix. Kids think that they are invincible and immortal, thus all of the many stupid and dangerous things they try. On Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:23:49 GMT, nag…@tinn.com (Stephen Nagler) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Jack Rodgers <jrodg…@bellsouth.net> wrote: >>Schools should begin educating children at a young age about the dangers of >>loud music to their ears and to their lives. This education should occur >>before the teen years. >…….. >Hence, the "Dangerous Decibels" project co-sponsored by the Oregon >Health Science University, the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry, >and the American Tinnitus Association. It’s a pilot project in Oregon >devoted to just those kinds of issues … with an eye to making it a >national endeavor within five years. Meanwhile ATA has in a separate >effort made great strides in getting tinnitus information into schools >in Oregon (for starters) AND into textbooks nation-wide. >smn >Stephen M. Nagler, MD, FACS >www.tinn.com >The views expressed above are those of the author. >Positions and opinions expressed do not necessarily >reflect those of the American Tinnitus Association.
Atlantic Coast Ear Specialists, P.C. hgutn…@series2000.com www.earaces.com
Response:
"Jack Rodgers" <jrodg…@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:B5F912FC.21CF%jrodgers@bellsouth.net… > > I hate to pessimisstic about these health education programs. > — > Jack Rodgers > There is a cure for tinnitus. Will someone please find it.
~~~~~~~~~~ As a mother of two, I have to agree about the health education projects which tend to be preachy, far too long (going on for years…same old materials). My kids’ feelings were that those who are going to smoke, drink or do drugs will do so anyway; those who weren’t going to won’t, and the classes don’t make a difference. >>>> > The next step is to really put pressure on the industries and show how they > are damaging people’s ears and the horror that can occur.
I agree totally. I don’t know how people even hear *music* over the humongous sound levels…it’s a mystery to me. So many musicians and technical people have tinnitus and/or hearing loss–they show up on AST at times and I feel for them. Like the people who didn’t know about cigarettes before the Surgeon General’s report, so many of these individuals are shocked and at a loss. But how to reach "the music industry?" > In Pennsylvania they sold liquor through state owned stores.
You still can’t buy liquor (except beer, which may be purchased in a bar) anywhere but in a state store in Pennsylvania. I don’t think the law has an effect on drinking patterns, though. People just buy before the stores close at 9 p.m, Kids get booze through older friends and, I’m sorry to say, at times, through parents. –Mary
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <8qvmg8$4t…@nnrp1.deja.com>, griff…@my-deja.com writes: >There was an interesting item last night on a news programme >here in the UK.The station sent a presenter with an audiologist >to meet up with 4 youngsters [18 to 19 ] on Europe’s No 1 Holiday/party >destination ,the island if Ibiza,a sort of modern Gomorrah. >The hearing of the 4 was tested before they went clubbing for >approx 6 hours.The presenter and audiologist went with them,the >audiologist measured noise level at avge 103db with a peak of 120db,at >103 the occupational limit would be about 90 mins.The presenter was >unable to be heard and subtitles had to be used,he described it as >being what he thought it must be like to be in the engine cowling of a >jet on takeoff. >Afterwards all 4 admitted they had ringing in their ears and retest >showed temporary damage for all of them.They were not concerned >to hear this and not one indicated they would change their habits. >Earplugs were simply not cool and would not be considered under any >circumstances,this was also the view of another 8 kids interviewed >outside the club.If its too loud your too old. >Their did seem to be an appreciation of possible damage but the >"it wont happen to me" syndrome prevails. >The exercise is part of a much wider survey into damage to >the hearing of 400 young people caused by loud music. >I have e-mailed the TV company to complain about the transmission >of such a horror story!
I actually did the same experiment some 18 years back, before i had tinnitus. My subjects were not clubbers in Ibeza, but members of a rock band and their audience. (I think I also used four subjects) The peak sound was around 105 dBA adjacent to the stage, and the temporary threshold shift (TTS) of the band members was around 5dB after 3 hours exposure. Standard audiometric equipment measures in units of 5 dB, so I couldn’t measure the change withany more accuracy. TTS of <5dB could not be measured. Even so, the TTS was noticeable subjectively to those involved. Interestingly, the lead guitarist had a perfect audiogram, and his hearing at 4 kHZ actually improved by 5 dB after some of the gigs!. You may recall that on the TV program, she didn’t actually quantify the results of her experiment, other than to say that they had a temporary hearing loss. I think that this was for the same reason as me – the size of the shift was not at all dramatic. I had a look at my college work a few weeks ago and it is better presented than I thought, although at the time I was disappointed that it hadn’t shown the temporary shift that I expected. Does anyone know the name of the researcher on the TV prog, or how to track her down? I’d like to compare notes with her. Tony
Response:
> You may recall that on the TV program, she didn’t actually quantify the > results > of her experiment, other than to say that they had a temporary hearing loss. I > think that this was for the same reason as me – the size of the shift was not > at all dramatic. > I had a look at my college work a few weeks ago and it is better presented > than > I thought, although at the time I was disappointed that it hadn’t shown the > temporary shift that I expected.
There remain a lot of questions to be answered. I realize I am digressing from these tests which were only checking measurable hearing loss. Primary – was anyone tested 6 months later, a year later, 5 years later? Second – where the instruments used sufficient to produce results that would be significant? You say the hearing loss was not at all dramatic. But could you look in to the ear and see if any of the hairs were damaged or if any bones or other hard parts of the ear system were fractured but not broken or bruised or dented? Did you test the brain to see if portions of it were damaged by the loud sounds? Where any tests don’t on portions of the mind to see if such loud sounds set up some negative patterns that might emerge later? What effect would these overwhelming sounds have on a mind that was not designed to experience them? I have no proof to back me up, but I think the instruments I have seen in use (which isn’t that many) are very crude and incapable of creating a definitive analysis of what has happened. I would compare them to a pinhole camera and then point to the electron microscope. Or maybe to trying to determine how many people are in a room by the sound a door makes when you knock on it. Has anyone ever hooked someone up to the device that produces wiggly lines of brain patterns and then had them relax and then played the loud concert level music for them. How would those scans compare? There were a few threads that described a scan finding activity in certain areas of the brain of tinnitus sufferers. What about scanning people before a concert and then after a concert and then maybe six months later? — Jack Rodgers There is a cure for tinnitus. Will someone please find it.
Response:
In article <8r2hdp$3e…@nnrp1.deja.com>, griff…@my-deja.com writes: >y >Hi Tony,I trust that it is only research notes you want to >compare! The lovely lady involved was Tracy Adams who can >be contacted via Manchester Univ or Royal Infirmary.You may >like to note that the main research is under the control of >Prof A Davies of the Institute of Hearing Research Notts and >results due in the near future.
Many thanks. I’ll get in touch. It’ll be interesting to see if she monitored the hearing over the whole of the holiday. At peaks of 120 dB for 8 hours/night, she might have some interesting results. Interesting comment on Ibeza; 75% of the holidaymakers are male, due to all the tv publicity that there has been about the resort. Cheers Tony
Response:
In article <20000929114248.22191.00000…@nso-cb.aol.com>, tonyjef…@aol.comTonyJ (TonyJeffs2) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <8qvmg8$4t…@nnrp1.deja.com>, griff…@my-deja.com writes: > >There was an interesting item last night on a news programme > >here in the UK.The station sent a presenter with an audiologist > >to meet up with 4 youngsters [18 to 19 ] on Europe’s No 1 Holiday/party > >destination ,the island if Ibiza,a sort of modern Gomorrah. > >The hearing of the 4 was tested before they went clubbing for > >approx 6 hours.The presenter and audiologist went with them,the > >audiologist measured noise level at avge 103db with a peak of 120db,at > >103 the occupational limit would be about 90 mins.The presenter was > >unable to be heard and subtitles had to be used,he described it as > >being what he thought it must be like to be in the engine cowling of a > >jet on takeoff. > >Afterwards all 4 admitted they had ringing in their ears and retest > >showed temporary damage for all of them.They were not concerned > >to hear this and not one indicated they would change their habits. > >Earplugs were simply not cool and would not be considered under any > >circumstances,this was also the view of another 8 kids interviewed > >outside the club.If its too loud your too old. > >Their did seem to be an appreciation of possible damage but the > >"it wont happen to me" syndrome prevails. > >The exercise is part of a much wider survey into damage to > >the hearing of 400 young people caused by loud music. > >I have e-mailed the TV company to complain about the transmission > >of such a horror story! > I actually did the same experiment some 18 years back, before i had tinnitus. > My subjects were not clubbers in Ibeza, but members of a rock band and their > audience. (I think I also used four subjects) > The peak sound was around 105 dBA adjacent to the stage, and the temporary > threshold shift (TTS) of the band members was around 5dB after 3 hours > exposure. Standard audiometric equipment measures in units of 5 dB, so I > couldn’t measure the change withany more accuracy. TTS of <5dB could not be > measured. > Even so, the TTS was noticeable subjectively to those involved. > Interestingly, the lead guitarist had a perfect audiogram, and his hearing at 4 > kHZ actually improved by 5 dB after some of the gigs!. > You may recall that on the TV program, she didn’t actually quantify the results > of her experiment, other than to say that they had a temporary hearing loss. I > think that this was for the same reason as me – the size of the shift was not > at all dramatic. > I had a look at my college work a few weeks ago and it is better presented than > I thought, although at the time I was disappointed that it hadn’t shown the > temporary shift that I expected. > Does anyone know the name of the researcher on the TV prog, or how to track her > down? I’d like to compare notes with her. > Tony
Hi Tony,I trust that it is only research notes you want to compare! The lovely lady involved was Tracy Adams who can be contacted via Manchester Univ or Royal Infirmary.You may like to note that the main research is under the control of Prof A Davies of the Institute of Hearing Research Notts and results due in the near future. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
Response:
oops hadn’t proof read or finished those last two messages; not ready for sending. OH well. I hope they were OK.
Response:
Headphones are worse than listening via speakers. The sound energy is concentrated. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com
Response:
"ENTconsult" <entcons…@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001005134752.07825.00000978@ng-md1.aol.com… > Headphones are worse than listening via speakers. The sound energy is > concentrated. > Murray Grossan, M.D.
http://www.ent-consult.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes, that is what I have always thought, but you are the first professional person to validate the idea…thank you. My husband took great care to teach my sons to listen to music with and without headphones, based basically on what sounded TOO loud in each arena–kids educated this way will curb the sound level IF they believe. Like other health issues, public education PLUS parental caring can make a difference. My kids may very well harbor deafness genes, but so far we don’t know, so far they take that possibility seriously. This makes me think also about complaints about the NYC subway…the dB level of steel wheels on steel track is not the same in an underground tunnel as might be outdoors. Correct? –Mary
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -tonyjef…@aol.comTonyJ (TonyJeffs2) wrote: >I actually did the same experiment some 18 years back, before i had tinnitus. >My subjects were not clubbers in Ibeza, but members of a rock band and their >audience. (I think I also used four subjects) >The peak sound was around 105 dBA adjacent to the stage, and the temporary >threshold shift (TTS) of the band members was around 5dB after 3 hours >exposure. Standard audiometric equipment measures in units of 5 dB, so I >couldn’t measure the change withany more accuracy. TTS of <5dB could not be >measured. >Even so, the TTS was noticeable subjectively to those involved. >Interestingly, the lead guitarist had a perfect audiogram, and his hearing at 4 >kHZ actually improved by 5 dB after some of the gigs!. >You may recall that on the TV program, she didn’t actually quantify the results >of her experiment, other than to say that they had a temporary hearing loss. I >think that this was for the same reason as me – the size of the shift was not >at all dramatic. >I had a look at my college work a few weeks ago and it is better presented than >I thought, although at the time I was disappointed that it hadn’t shown the >temporary shift that I expected. >Does anyone know the name of the researcher on the TV prog, or how to track her >down? I’d like to compare notes with her. >Tony
………. I was interested to learn recently that sound engineers at rock concerts typically turn up the amplifiers in the second half of the rock concert … so that the audience, which by that time has already suffered a threshold shift, won’t complain that the music has gotten softer! smn Stephen M. Nagler, MD, FACS www.tinn.com The views expressed above are those of the author. Positions and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the American Tinnitus Association.
Response:
In article <B5FA3B4D.224E%jrodg…@bellsouth.net>, Jack Rodgers <jrodg…@bellsouth.net> writes: >There remain a lot of questions to be answered. I realize I am digressing >from these tests which were only checking measurable hearing loss. >Primary – was anyone tested 6 months later, a year later, 5 years later?
No. A linear study would be interesting, though. Then again, these people live varied lives, so any deterioration could not be associated with one factor such as rock music. There must be a lot of linear information in, for example, the medical records of some factory workers where effect could be more reasonably associated with a specific cause. >Second – where the instruments used sufficient to produce results that would >be significant? You say the hearing loss was not at all dramatic. But could >you look in to the ear and see if any of the hairs were damaged or if any >bones or other hard parts of the ear system were fractured but not broken or >bruised or dented? Did you test the brain to see if portions of it were >damaged by the loud sounds?
My experiment was designed to look at temporary threshold shift. The TTS was in the region of 5dB, so any permanant threshold shift would be a lot smaller. For a person with normal hearing under most circumstances, the permanant hearing loss from an individual concert would be too small to measure, although the cumulative effect over many exposures is likely to be significant. ………… Another guy did an amazing experiment. He had his subjects’ heads fixed in a harness, and positioned a circle of loudspeakers infront, above, behind and below them. They had to identify the direction from which sound was coming. I don’t know what his results were unfortunately, but it was tremendously difficult for him to set up. Tony
Response:
There was an interesting item last night on a news programme here in the UK.The station sent a presenter with an audiologist to meet up with 4 youngsters [18 to 19 ] on Europe’s No 1 Holiday/party destination ,the island if Ibiza,a sort of modern Gomorrah. The hearing of the 4 was tested before they went clubbing for approx 6 hours.The presenter and audiologist went with them,the audiologist measured noise level at avge 103db with a peak of 120db,at 103 the occupational limit would be about 90 mins.The presenter was unable to be heard and subtitles had to be used,he described it as being what he thought it must be like to be in the engine cowling of a jet on takeoff. Afterwards all 4 admitted they had ringing in their ears and retest showed temporary damage for all of them.They were not concerned to hear this and not one indicated they would change their habits. Earplugs were simply not cool and would not be considered under any circumstances,this was also the view of another 8 kids interviewed outside the club.If its too loud your too old. Their did seem to be an appreciation of possible damage but the "it wont happen to me" syndrome prevails. The exercise is part of a much wider survey into damage to the hearing of 400 young people caused by loud music. I have e-mailed the TV company to complain about the transmission of such a horror story! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
