Fish and Hearing – New research shows how fish hear and make sounds at the same time.

Question:

This study could lead to help for people who hear things too loud. Bill M

Response:

Those fish knew Sound waves is the thing that virbrates something in the ears. Smart Fish. Pam-Doggirl3

Response:

On Mon 29 Aug 2005 12:01:13p, I love my doggie wrote in alt.support.hearing- loss: > Those fish knew Sound waves is the thing that virbrates something in the > ears. Smart Fish. > Pam-Doggirl3

Just what I want…fish ears! — Wayne Boatwright *

DIY but exceptionally high end semi portable HA system made with pro recording studio equipment

Question:

Thank you very much Peter for your thoughts. I really appreciate the effort you have gone to. I think I’m going to start with the Behringer device I mentioned; and "have a play" to get a feel for things. It does seem sad that so much of what is available is constrained by market forces; if what it is one is after; does not fit into what the majority ask for. Still; the very existence of market forces; mean all this stuff is available; and one shouldn’t lose sight of it! I do wonder if as someone said earlier; PDAs offer some possibilites. It set me thinking. Not perhaps in the way that they intended; but; it does give a platform; within which one can write and compile some code; to try things out; in a DIY way; that wan’t possible even 10 years ago. My snag here is no time; and currently no expereince with the necessary software tools; but I can imagine this being a very interesting hobby activity; in a year or two… It may be possible to buy off the shelf software for a lot of audio processing; if any of you look at electronic music stuff ever? The power of modern desk top PCs to run "virtual" synths and digital effects on the fly; is truly astounding. One last thought. You said Peter; that 5ms is the upper limit for latency in a hearing aid (or words to that effect). Is that really so? I thought 1ms=1 foot or ther abouts. We don’t have problems with inteligibiliiity with hearing people over 5 feet away.. ? Is this because of leak though of direct sound inteferring with the HA produced sound that causes the problem bacuse of comb filter effects et al, rather than the latency per se? Al the best Jonathan

Response:

jhisted…@aol.com wrote: > It may be possible to buy off the shelf software for a lot of audio > processing; if any of you look at electronic music stuff ever? The > power of modern desk top PCs to run "virtual" synths and digital > effects on the fly; is truly astounding.

MatLab is often used in engineering environments to simulate different processing types. > One last thought. You said Peter; that 5ms is the upper limit for > latency in a hearing aid (or words to that effect). Is that really so? > I thought 1ms=1 foot or ther abouts. We don’t have problems with > inteligibiliiity with hearing people over 5 feet away.. ? Is this > because of leak though of direct sound inteferring with the HA produced > sound that causes the problem bacuse of comb filter effects et al, > rather than the latency per se?

There is a range of secondary effects linked to latency. The smallest range is the interaural time difference which is used to localize sound. This would dictate that a hearing aid should have much less than 1 msec latency when used in a binaural fitting. Somewhere between 5 msec and 10 msec many hearing impaired users will experience comb-filter effect on their own voices. My mention of 5 msec was slightly polemic. The FFT/IFFT types typically have a latency of 10 – 12 msec, and they are used by many hearing impaired people without major nuisance. It depends a lot on the actual hearing loss. At around 50 msec latencies, syncronization of ones own voice is disturbed and most people begin stuttering. This has been used to catch young men simulating hearing loss in order to avoid military service. They were asked to real aloud while their voice was fed back through headphones at a very low level. If they could hear the their own voice through the headphones thus having good hearing, they would start stuttering. When the latency goes beyond 100 msec, syncronization with lip-reading will be impossible and there will be a distinct echo on one’s own voice. > Al the best

Thanks – and the same to you. Peter

Response:

I re-read "Claim" 9 and am puzzled by your comment. The paragraph points to the advantage of having more dc power for a DSP and the advantage of a single DSP knowing exactly what both the right and left microphone sets are hearing. If you are implying that the ideal implementation of DSP functions in hearing aids is not VERY severely frustrated by the amount of dc power available you are off the mark (as designers who have modeled ideal HA experimental designs on large computers will be very happy to tell you). At a minimum, all the adaptive functions (feedback suppression, noise suppression, localization, directional control, etc. would benefit from much faster refresh and tracking. And wider fixed point DSPs have an advantage in achieving greater dynamic range and lower noise floors (especially when emulating floating point DSP calculations for many things including IIR filters). (see http://www.ecnmag.com/article/CA623713.html) All this is limited by dc power available. If you feel that adding real-time binaural DSP calculations (not possible with separate R/L DSPs) are not useful for improved microphone dir. control, localization and noise reduction routines, I would also disagree with you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Peter Weis wrote: > errat…@yahoo.com wrote: > > http://crimminstracks.tripod.com/personalsoundprocessing/id1.html > It seems that the author knows nothing about DSP and signal processing. > Claim 9 is downright ridiculous. > best regards > Peter

Response:

jhisted…@aol.com wrote: > I appreciate my intial plan must seem a little muddled; as there are > two very different appplications I talked about. Firstly watching tv. > This I think we’d all agree, ought to be an easier problem to tackle; > if there is to be a one off bespoke solution; as so many constraints > with normal HAs i.e. size cosmetics; power supplies; evaporate.

The TV in itself is not the worst situation. Most hearing impaired people can deal with it by simply turning up the volume. At some point it may get annoying to family and neighbours. Typically there is no competing bakground noise to disturb the listening and there will often be support from unconscious lipreading. But, we might consider the number of situations that would require separate hearing devices. If you need one for television, another for jogging, a third one for speaking on the phone, a fourth for conversations in the lunch-room, a fifth for car driving and so forth, then lifes starts becoming complicated. The aim of a hearing aid is to one device that works in all situations. During a quiet stroll in the park, during a TGIF event during work, during TV watching etc. That may be too ambitious. But to the extent that it works, it makes life simpler than to have many indiidual devices. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am very puzzled by how DSP seems to be bandied around as a buz word; > a bit like the term "digital". I’ve never unsderstood what is so > magical about this.. Can anyone explain… ? I can see there will be > impacts on power usage; and ease of construction; in that you can start > doing stuff in software rather than in messy anaolgue circuitry; but > does DSp get used to actually do anything clever? Compression; EQ; > directionality; these are all esaily done with out any kind of digital > electronics i.e. they are not a "new possibility" in the digital world. > I studied maths and computation at Oxford a long time ago (err about 15 > years); and I did a VLSI design course as a small subcomponent; and > that led me to appreciate the algorithm was all. What is so special > about the algorithms in "DSP" HAs ? I’ve seen quite a few adverts, and > also papers on manufacturer web sites, getting very excited that they > can create directionality out of using DSP; to essentially delay the > signal from one mic; and mix it with that from another; to get wave > length dependent cancelling; and hence directinoality… Well; I think > it’s almost embaressing they feel they can write about that. Isn’t that > Jane and John stuff? Surely this was all worked out when people were > tinkering withcondensor mics in the 40s or earlier (i.e. 70 years ago). > the fact it is done in DSp; rather than passively; or via an analogue > PD or some such; is really rather irrelevant to the outcome surely…? > Is DSP used to do any seriously smart stuff; like perhaps recognise > voices; then resynthesise them? That I would have thought would have > some mileage for profoundly deaf people. Or moderately smart: Pitch > shift the high frequencies down; so people hear starlings; as big > bruisers of birds…?

For sure the DSP in itself is nothing. It all boils down to what you do with the DSP. In the SOTA hearing aids of today, the menu includes adaptive directionality, noise reduction or speech enhancement, feedback cancellation and compression in 14 – 20 bands. Today this is made power restraints dictated by size and capacity of batteries, 1V supply and 1mW of consumption. If you go to more complicated mechanical construction (belt box for batteries with a wire to the ear pieces), then you get rid of the power restraint. One of the very first digital hearing aids Phoenix from Nicolet in the late 80′es was concieved like that. The came on the market 6 or 7 years before the official first digital hearing aids from Widex (Senso) and Oticon (DigiFocus). But the customers didn’t accept the extra burden of the battery box and the wire, so the product was discontinued after one or two years. Directional hearing aids have existed since the 70′es. They used simple cardioid electret microphones. They were never very popular, though, as they had higher idle noise levels and higher sensitivity to wind noise (hearing aids are also used outdoors). Today an adaptive directional system is built around two or three individual mics. The system "analyzes" the sonic environment adjust the directionality for optimal SNR. In wind noise and in low noise levels it tends towards omnidirectional performance, in situations with one dominant noise source they will tend to place the null it its direction and in more complex situations they will optimize the overall SNR. Some systems even supervise the relative phase and sensitive characeristics in order to push the systems to maximum effet. The DSPs do not recognize individual voices, and they don’t resynthesize them. They recognize vocal activity and treats it different from noise. However, the definition of noise is not a simple matter. Any given sound might sometimes be a noise and sometimes be a signal, e.g. fire alarms. So simply excluding some sounds is not wise. Resynthesizing voices is not a simple matter either, if you want to distinguish different talkers. Especially if they are using different languages. In the hearing aid world there a strong appreciation of cultural differences, as roughly 55% of the hearing aid industry is based in small european countries. There is some kind of voice synthesis in cochlear implants. But the general sound quality of these synthesised signals is rather poor. > I would suspect Peter that you will say; nice idea; but it can’t be > done in the 5ms window of opportunity?

It came to my mind. However, I see the main obstacle in what is expected from a hearing aid. Ideally, users would like them to restore normal hearing. It should be exactly as simple to live with a hearing aid as it were before the hearing aid was needed. > This 5ms window is obviously a very real constraint; and a severe one. > Bet heh; the real world is like that with real problems. What can > currently be done by DSP that is truly novel; that a compressor; and > limitter and EQs, and directional mics can’t currently do?

Well, you can do most of things much better with a DSP. In addition, we have got noise reduction/speech enhancement and feedback cancellation which was never available in analog hearing aids. > I am slightly concerned that I’ve read so much about intelligibility of > speech as being the gold standard for hearing aids (and laudably so–it > must be smiply desperate when normal converstaion is slipping from your > grasp), but non the less; it is not clear that this aim; coincides with > that of maximising clarity in normal hearing: The arguments about > quality in hearing aid microphoens being adequate; and inded as they’ve > got smaller they’ve got better; I find unsettling. Why is it; when we > record; we do not use small microphones; and indeed would never use > dynamic microhpones as sounding simply hideous– nothing good ever came > out of one. They can be made to give flat frequency responses; yet they > do sound "wrong"; and do not give the detail which as an able eared > listener we can distinguish (e..g separating the violin 1s from the > violin 2s…), in the way that nice chunky 1 inch or so diameter > condensor mics do?

Small is better because you get more performance in a given package than you did before. There are some acoustical advantages in small hearing aids. CIC with the microphone in the Ear Reference Point will give a better reproduction of the diffractions around the auricle/pinna and provide better localisation of signal azimuts. This will help separating signal sources and assist speech intelligibility in noise. Speech intelligibility in noise is not the only focal point in hearing aids. But it is the factor that most often makes people realise when they need hearing assistance. So it is perceived as the most annoying problem when hearing is getting harder by most customers. That’s why it is often pushed in communications with the public. > Is the relatively massive computing power that can be brought to bear > on the problem by a PDA; or indeed Pic chips or whatever; so vast for > the current algorithms given that we are processing an audio stream not > a video one; that it is actually irrelevant which platform you pick to > do the job; be it on an embedded device or whatever? Surely the problem > is more a computational one of working out what on earth one wants to > do? Basic function theory means that you can simulate any filter you > like with an impulse response; convolved very easily with an ongoing > matrix calculation on the fly; (as I’m sure all of you with a > techinical bent are all aware); the snag is this doesn’t get us far; as > we want to enhance the information content of the sounds; but we are > unable to identify in a technical sense what the information content > actually is…

Well, some digital hearing aids are around big IIR/FIR filter banks and others are built around a FFT/IFFT filter bank. The trick is to make functions that will adjust the coefficients in the filters so that have "optimum" performance in any given situation. > Oh well enough musing. Anyone got any concreate  view s on how to go > about setting a compressor/ limiter/ gitial EQ to maximise hearing > clarity… ?

Loyalty to me previous employer prevents me from being concrete. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My guess is: At the first approximation: compress the TV signal to > reduce dynmic range; so the program material just fits within my > father’s dynamic range. Ensure that "maximum" loudness is not actually > that loud: or else he will damage his hearing further (hence the > limitter). Now the subtle bit: of course the dynamic range of his > hearing is frequency dependent; so he will need more compression and > more upward offset (as it were) at the freqencies where his hearing is > rolling off (i.e. high and

… read more »

Response:

Dear All: I’ve been away for some days; so haven’t been able to catch up. the web is a wonderful thing; when interested thinking people come together as through forums like this; all bringing their differnet expereinces and thoughts to bear, so thank you for your trouble posting onthis thread I started: Peter: You write some very interesting things; obviously backed by much practical expereince. I’m aware my initial comments must have seemed somewhat naive; but that was partly as I wanted to stimulate some response; and I ppreciate you taking the trouble to point some things out. You can’t beat expereince! I appreciate my intial plan must seem a little muddled; as there are two very different appplications I talked about. Firstly watching tv. This I think we’d all agree, ought to be an easier problem to tackle; if there is to be a one off bespoke solution; as so many constraints with normal HAs i.e. size cosmetics; power supplies; evaporate. I’m interested in how far one can push the envelope though; in that several people have commented that apparently fairly striaghtforward headphones they find helpful: I wonder how easy it is to do a little better; of course always constrained ultimatley; by one not being able to replace what has been lost. Certainly my father quickly latched onto my "better" headphones increasing the inteligbility as the subject matter became more muffled: beyond a point where simple frequency repsonse discrepancies would indicate he should be doing any better. Also, there is no signal processing going on at this stage. I have been eyeing up one box to do some simple signal prcoessing on the stereo feed from the TV: http://www.behringer.com/DEQ2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG; as it rather nicely has a compressor; limiter; delay line (so I can ensure that if my mum is using the main speakers; then at least any leak through sound will arrive at my dads ears at the same time; otherwise we introduce a lot of unplesaant error; akin to reverberancewhich n the intial testing was surprisingly noticable to him; even with closed headphones, and intelligbility increased significantly when the main speakers were silenced); and heaps of digital EQ possibilities. Is what one can do with this box essentially like what is in most hearing aids (except of course a delay is the exact opposite of what one wants in a normal hearing aid), albeit all the parameters set by the audiologist/ at the factory? I am very puzzled by how DSP seems to be bandied around as a buz word; a bit like the term "digital". I’ve never unsderstood what is so magical about this.. Can anyone explain… ? I can see there will be impacts on power usage; and ease of construction; in that you can start doing stuff in software rather than in messy anaolgue circuitry; but does DSp get used to actually do anything clever? Compression; EQ; directionality; these are all esaily done with out any kind of digital electronics i.e. they are not a "new possibility" in the digital world. I studied maths and computation at Oxford a long time ago (err about 15 years); and I did a VLSI design course as a small subcomponent; and that led me to appreciate the algorithm was all. What is so special about the algorithms in "DSP" HAs ? I’ve seen quite a few adverts, and also papers on manufacturer web sites, getting very excited that they can create directionality out of using DSP; to essentially delay the signal from one mic; and mix it with that from another; to get wave length dependent cancelling; and hence directinoality… Well; I think it’s almost embaressing they feel they can write about that. Isn’t that Jane and John stuff? Surely this was all worked out when people were tinkering withcondensor mics in the 40s or earlier (i.e. 70 years ago). the fact it is done in DSp; rather than passively; or via an analogue PD or some such; is really rather irrelevant to the outcome surely…? Is DSP used to do any seriously smart stuff; like perhaps recognise voices; then resynthesise them? That I would have thought would have some mileage for profoundly deaf people. Or moderately smart: Pitch shift the high frequencies down; so people hear starlings; as big bruisers of birds…? I would suspect Peter that you will say; nice idea; but it can’t be done in the 5ms window of opportunity? This 5ms window is obviously a very real constraint; and a severe one. Bet heh; the real world is like that with real problems. What can currently be done by DSP that is truly novel; that a compressor; and limitter and EQs, and directional mics can’t currently do? Also: I am slightly concerned that I’ve read so much about intelligibility of speech as being the gold standard for hearing aids (and laudably so–it must be smiply desperate when normal converstaion is slipping from your grasp), but non the less; it is not clear that this aim; coincides with that of maximising clarity in normal hearing: The arguments about quality in hearing aid microphoens being adequate; and inded as they’ve got smaller they’ve got better; I find unsettling. Why is it; when we record; we do not use small microphones; and indeed would never use dynamic microhpones as sounding simply hideous– nothing good ever came out of one. They can be made to give flat frequency responses; yet they do sound "wrong"; and do not give the detail which as an able eared listener we can distinguish (e..g separating the violin 1s from the violin 2s…), in the way that nice chunky 1 inch or so diameter condensor mics do? Is the relatively massive computing power that can be brought to bear on the problem by a PDA; or indeed Pic chips or whatever; so vast for the current algorithms given that we are processing an audio stream not a video one; that it is actually irrelevant which platform you pick to do the job; be it on an embedded device or whatever? Surely the problem is more a computational one of working out what on earth one wants to do? Basic function theory means that you can simulate any filter you like with an impulse response; convolved very easily with an ongoing matrix calculation on the fly; (as I’m sure all of you with a techinical bent are all aware); the snag is this doesn’t get us far; as we want to enhance the information content of the sounds; but we are unable to identify in a technical sense what the information content actually is… Oh well enough musing. Anyone got any concreate  view s on how to go about setting a compressor/ limiter/ gitial EQ to maximise hearing clarity… ? My guess is: At the first approximation: compress the TV signal to reduce dynmic range; so the program material just fits within my father’s dynamic range. Ensure that "maximum" loudness is not actually that loud: or else he will damage his hearing further (hence the limitter). Now the subtle bit: of course the dynamic range of his hearing is frequency dependent; so he will need more compression and more upward offset (as it were) at the freqencies where his hearing is rolling off (i.e. high and low frequencies) again paying attention to not making loud program material come out too loud at these frequencies. Given I don’t have a 31 1/3 octave freqency selective dependent compressors; EQ will be difficult but neccessary to apply; as we are trying to increase the floor of the signal volume at the frequencies where his hearing is rolling off, without making the loud singals too loud at these frequencies. (Perhaps here; the interaction of a limiter and EQ will be useful; the limitter to enure the loud stuff doens’t becoeme too loud; and the EQ to increase the amplitude of the quiet…) The digital Eq device I mentioned above does contain frequency dependent compressors. I presumably want to set up a frequency dependent compressor(s); to reduce the dynamic range at high and low frequencies where essenatilly we are "looking for the boost"; so as to not then overload his hearing when it gets loud. Do all hearing aids do what I am suggesting? Otherwise; broadband copression results in broadband dynamic range reduction; which cannot be in the least bit desirable. Sorry to burble; but continued observations would be greatfully recieved. I suspect Peter you’ll tell me "the way it really is". LOL Jonathan

Response:

zaf…@yahoo.com wrote: > Yes, this has some interesting commentary, but the technical stuff > seems to be a little out of wack.  In particular, as has already been > discussed ad infinitum here, the hardware cost of a full digital is not > more then a few hundred $US.

That is is not different from other appliances. Consumers pay a lot more thatn the chinese laboreres receive for producing te stuff. > My 2 cents worth is that the performance (of a full digital) relies > more on the performance of the DSP algorithms more then anything else. > This website complains that Siemens claims the triano can be set very > close with a single fitting.  Well I have a triano and agree!  The > initial fit was very close!  The prior generation (Signia) I probably > spend ~ 4 hours in fitting.

Sorry, which website? The manufacturers try to mk life as easy as possible to their customers. This will mean that fitting of a hearing aid to a "normal" hearing loss is pretty straight and can be done within a couple of hours. However, less typical hearing lossescan take much more time. As hearing aids are typically sold in "flat rate" packages, those who require a lot of service will pay no more than those requiring no service at all. You could argue that all flat ate schemes are socialist inventions. > If you take your audiogram and then build an amp to make the total > response ‘flat’ you will find this does not give you good hearing, this > is why the mfgrs probably spend more on DSP algorithm development then > hardware.

If you build such an amp, you will 1) show your ignoance, and 2) get a hell of lot of liability law suits. > Now what might be interesting is if we could get a pod for an PDA with > a quality directional mike along with a decent blue tooth earpiece.

Search the net for "shotgiun mic" for a picture of a quality directional mic. Good directional mics have to do with the wave length of sounds. They are big, 2 or 3 feet. Imagine a 2 – 3 feet long microphone in a hearing aid. Bluetooth or not, that doesn’t make a difference. > That would let us tinker with algorithms by spending a modest sum.  Of > corse from a pratical perspective, like most, I would prefer this > hardware be completely self contained in a tiny box nestled bedind my > ear.

To meet todays SOTA hearing aids we need an algorithm that cancels feedback, provides amplification in 16+ bands, reduces non-speech components and provides for compensation of non-linear effect of hearing loss without introducing delays of more than 5 msec. If you can suggest a good way of doing so substantially better than present top hearing aids, I might make you rich. best regards Peter

Response:

Yes, this has some interesting commentary, but the technical stuff seems to be a little out of wack.  In particular, as has already been discussed ad infinitum here, the hardware cost of a full digital is not more then a few hundred $US. My 2 cents worth is that the performance (of a full digital) relies more on the performance of the DSP algorithms more then anything else. This website complains that Siemens claims the triano can be set very close with a single fitting.  Well I have a triano and agree!  The initial fit was very close!  The prior generation (Signia) I probably spend ~ 4 hours in fitting. If you take your audiogram and then build an amp to make the total response ‘flat’ you will find this does not give you good hearing, this is why the mfgrs probably spend more on DSP algorithm development then hardware. Now what might be interesting is if we could get a pod for an PDA with a quality directional mike along with a decent blue tooth earpiece. That would let us tinker with algorithms by spending a modest sum.  Of corse from a pratical perspective, like most, I would prefer this hardware be completely self contained in a tiny box nestled bedind my ear.

Response:

errat…@yahoo.com wrote: > http://crimminstracks.tripod.com/personalsoundprocessing/id1.html

It seems that the author knows nothing about DSP and signal processing. Claim 9 is downright ridiculous. best regards Peter

Response:

There are ideas for wireless high audio quality DSP body aids around. Some concepts double as PDA’s or cell phones. See this one: http://crimminstracks.tripod.com/personalsoundprocessing/id1.html

Response:

This could be the next evolution.  Extreamly directionial body aids without wires going up to the ears, with telephone, radio, FM mike, and t-coils of various orientations.  They could be made in many colors.  This is big. American Cheers better pay attention. Bill M <errat…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1124477449.807713.53390@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There are ideas for wireless high audio quality DSP body aids around. > Some concepts double as PDA’s or cell phones. > See this one: > http://crimminstracks.tripod.com/personalsoundprocessing/id1.html

Response:

Jon:  Ole boy.   You are on to something that I have been saying on hoh forums for some time….that is, that a body aid with wireless headphones or wireless ear plugs could do the trick.  Plus clip on dual mikes. Body aids carried in a belt clip or in a purse could have enough battery and DSP power to do the job with low distortion and plenty of overhead.  But would it sell in America?  I don’t know. I use the Sennheiser 100 series infra-red stethoscope type ear phones. I can hear everything on TV or radio just perfectly.  As you know the broadcasts themselves use low distortion mikes, amps, and limiters, etc.  This Sennheiser even comes with a mike and a mike input plus a one size fits all limiter.  Also there is a trimmer to cut the lows and boost the highs.  You could rig a battery pack for this beast and have a very good portable HA. Most hearing aids distort something awful.  THD, IMD and phase problems with the incoming lows from the vents and phase shifts across the spectrum all play havoc with the subtle speech clues.  And I suspect that the large number channels used causes spectral smearing.  The  HA mfg’s  murder the signal in the name of having more bells and whistles to sell the things.   Ed On 17 Aug 2005 13:59:17 -0700, "jonny_hifi" <jhisted…@aol.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have been trying to help my father who is suffering age related >hearing loss (very typical.. no high end left)… and he has used an >NHS dispensed HA (He lives in the UK), with some success; but it leaves >him unable to make out speech often on broadcast TV. (I should say he >listens to the TV via some Spendor BC1s and Quad amps as obviously >conventional TVs are "un-listenable to" even by non HA users). >Anyway; I have a good scientific background, and understand a fair bit >about the physics of sound, and its reproduction, and also the biology >of the ear, and electronics and computing. (I read maths at Oxford). I >used to be involved in recording classical music, so have a passion for >audio clarity. It strikes me that all hearing aids that I have so far >seen, seem to be battling to squeeze as much battery life, oh yes-and >quality out of components that are essentially too small to do the >job. As Scotty said "Ye canny change the laws of physics". >When producing semi-pro classical recordings, I worked out a long time >ago, that to achieve "acceptable" sensitivity from microphones, you >need 1 inch or so diameter condenser capsules. Anything less produces >horrible dictaphone type results. (OK I exaggerate.. but it’s not far >off.). So: If one sticks to the premise that the device has to fit >invisibly within the ear; you are forever handicapped in the design >possibilities. >Now for my father, I have 2 DIY tasks in mind: (1) to concoct a >headphone style listening device for watching TV: He doesn’t care >what’s connected or the size… no one will see him! >(2) Closely following on the heels of this one… It struck me that if >we could pair a fairly unobtrusive in-ear; sound isolating earphone (At >the mo. the etymotic Er4s appear sadly the best one can do; though they >leave a lot to be desired), and perhaps use something like some AKG 414 >mics that one sits on the seat in front during a concert; plugged into >a battery powered mic. pre amp that is of high quality (so few are); >and suitable "processing" box. In a restaurant one could stick the mics >on the table, having the obvious advantage in the noisy restaurant >environment of simply harnessing the inverse square law; to separate >the person talking; from background hubbub, by putting the microphone >nearer to them, than would be possible with all in one -within the ear >solutions. In both circumstances I feel it should be easy to surpass >the quality achievable with a hearing aid; at the expense of having to >be happy to lug some equipment with one, that is only semi-portable. >For these two very special circumstances; which hearing aids are just >not optimised for; his pleasure could be improved significantly; >judging by our experiments so far. >Before anyone says: I know one can never regain what’s lost in terms of >his ability to perceive; but as long as one pours the highest quality >stimuli achievable into his ear canals; one should be able to maximise >the best of a bad starting situation. As an aside- my father has never >really been interested in hifi, but his ability to pinpoint the >"quality" hifi components recently as we started to play with this idea >within seconds is uncanny; in A-B comparisons when asked to. Just >because he has impaired hearing; doesn’t mean he can’t use what’s left: >and he himself has observed; surely we should try and maximise the >quality of every component in the chain. >When I recently put my father under a pair of "listenable to" >headphones (AKG electret K340s, which retailed for approx.

PTSD??

Question:

Dear Beverly, You may well have PTSD.  I had it after my dad died suddenly in 1988, but I was undiagnosed.  I simply went along with whatever was going on inside of me until it got a little better. I lost my mother to lung cancer in December.  It has been very diffucult for me, as I suffer with anxiety, major depression and schizoaffective disorder.  I have all of that to deal with along with losing my mom and attending to her estate.  It’s too much to bear, really. You have been shocked to the core with the revelation of your impending losses.  It will get worse before it gets better, too.  I am sorry to be so pessimistic, but losing someone is worse than learning that you are GOING to lose someone.  Take the therapy for PTSD.  It may also help you to contact your local hospice and get hooked up with a grief counselor.  I’ve had one out to my house twice and he helped alot. Hospice may have several services you could avail yourself to, to help you get through the grief.  I intend to attend a group on grief May 25.  That’s the next time the new group meets.  It’s been several months, but it took me this long to get over the shock of Mom’s death and be ready to really grieve. You have been through alot.  Please realize this and cut yourself some slack.  When I think back on all I have been though since September, when my mom was first diagnosed until now, I feel like Superwoman having lived through it.  If you feel the need, you can write to me personally.  I have been there and I’m on the road to coming back from it.  All my prayers are with you and your friends. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::However I certainly have experienced on-going ::and recurring grief.  I’ve made an appointment to meet with our ::hospice’s grief therapist next week.  I felt tremendous relief just ::speaking with her on the phone.  My pdoc appointment was fine today; ::I’m switching to Cymbalta with high hopes that this will be a good med ::for me.  If the grief therapist isn’t enough I will see the CBT ::therapist; it will only take a week to get in to see her.  I took the ::advice of the woman I spoke with at the conference this weekend, and ::informed my family about my severe depression and feel a great burden ::has been lifted already.  Being able to share with this group is also a ::great help. Dear Bev, I`m so glad that you have taken steps to lighten the burden. You sound much better today! Good luck with the cymbalta and grief therapy. Jackie ~*~I`m an angel! Honest The horns are just there to keep my halo up straight~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in a very bad place right now.  I’m quickly spiraling into the type of depression that paralyzed me (not literally) a few years ago. Brief background:  my mother died at age 53 when I was 27.  I had a small daughter at the time and never felt I had the time to grieve; whenever I cried my daughter cried too.  A year later my son was born and it took 11 years to get his proper diagnosis (medical technology had to catch up–his syndrome is a fairly newly recongized one–causes mental retardation, autism spectrum disorder, sleep and behavior disturbances, vision and hearing loss, etc).  When he was 8 1/2 he lost an eye due to a retinal detachment.  His "good" eye will always be at great risk for a detachment at well.  After a year of countless hospital stays/surgeries to try to save the eye we knew it was hopeless.  Soon after I began anti-depressant therapy.  A few laters a good friend (we were a group of 4) died in a month’s time after a gruesome battle with anaplastic thyroid cancer.  She was 53.  The following month my closest friend’s 7 year old daughter from a rare progressive disease–also a very difficult and painful death.  A few weeks ago I learned another close friend is dying very soon from ovarian cancer (age 57). (She was one of our orignal group of 4; when she dies we will be just two–and this was my only "group" of friends not disability related and very important to me). My son’s #1 physician and support medical person for him also has ovarian cancer.  The friend whose child died has another child with mental retardation and has developed a progressive disease similar to MS (not fatal but debilitating).  I have been slowly deteriorating and the news of my good friend’s impending death has put me over the edge.  I was at a conference this weekend re: my son’s diability and was completely un-interested and on the 3rd day "lost it" in a mother’s group; once I started to cry I couldn’t stop.  A social worker in the group took me under her wing for an impromtpu "session" and strongly suggested therapy along with my current meds.  She thought specific PTSD therapy was needed.  I have never thought of myself as suffering from PTSD and wondered that the the group’s opinion might be.  Is it important to see a therapist that specialized in this, or is "regular" CBT the most important thing?  I see my pdoc tomorrow and will ask for an adjustment to meds and a referral to a therapist.  I did see a therapist a 2 years ago but didn’t think her approach (not CBT) was ultimately helpful for me.  Our insurance is lousy this year so money is a factor too; however I have realized that I must take action to start to heal.  There is a a highly respected pschologist who works here in Allentown (can’t think of his name–some of you have seen him–I would know his name if you mentioned it) but he doesn’t do the therapy bit anymore, although his wife does as well as one of his colleagues.  I think I’m on the right track but could use advice to make the most of my brief visit with pdoc tomorrow and to help find the most helpful therapist for me.  I went through several a few years ago and it was months of wasted time/money.  Right now I don’t feel like I have months to search.  I’ve read the CBT books but need more help than self-help.  I’d appreciate any input and will let you all know what happens Tomorrow at my apointment.  Many thanks,  Beverly The CBT guy….just remembered his name–Frank Dattilio.

Hi Beverly, I’d find a CBT therapist. I don’t know if you meet the criteria for PTSD (see below). Good luck with your pdoc visit tomorrow. You’ve been through alot!  ((((Beverly))) Chip Diagnostic criteria for 309.81 Posttraumatic Stress Disorder  A. The person has been exposed to a traumatic event in which *both* of the following were present: (1) the person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others (2) the person’s response involved intense fear, helplessness, or horror. Note: In children, this may be expressed instead by disorganized or agitated behavior B. The traumatic event is persistently reexperienced in one (or more) of the following ways: (1) recurrent and intrusive distressing recollections of the event, including images, thoughts, or perceptions. Note: In young children, repetitive play may occur in which themes or aspects of the trauma are expressed. (2) recurrent distressing dreams of the event. Note: In children, there may be frightening dreams without recognizable content. (3) acting or feeling as if the traumatic event were recurring (includes a sense of reliving the experience, illusions, hallucinations, and dissociative flashback episodes, including those that occur on awakening or when intoxicated). Note: In young children, trauma-specific reenactment may occur. (4) intense psychological distress at exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event (5) physiological reactivity on exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event C. Persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma and numbing of general responsiveness (not present before the trauma), as indicated by three (or more) of the following: (1) efforts to avoid thoughts, feelings, or conversations associated with the trauma (2) efforts to avoid activities, places, or people that arouse recollections of the trauma (3) inability to recall an important aspect of the trauma (4) markedly diminished interest or participation in significant activities (5) feeling of detachment or estrangement from others (6) restricted range of affect (e.g., unable to have loving feelings) (7) sense of a foreshortened future (e.g., does not expect to have a career, marriage, children, or a normal life span) D. Persistent symptoms of increased arousal (not present before the trauma), as indicated by two (or more) of the following: (1) difficulty falling or staying asleep (2) irritability or outbursts of anger (3) difficulty concentrating (4) hypervigilance (5) exaggerated startle response E. Duration of the disturbance (symptoms in Criteria B, C, and D) is more than 1 month. F. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. Specify if: Acute: if duration of symptoms is less than 3 months Chronic: if duration of symptoms is 3 months or more Specify if: With Delayed Onset: if onset of symptoms is at least 6 months after the stressor Reprinted with permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision.  Copyright 2000 American Psychiatric Association — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

<Gently snipped :: She thought specific PTSD therapy ::was needed.  I have never thought of myself as suffering from PTSD and ::wondered that the the group’s opinion might be.  Is it important to see ::a therapist that specialized in this, or is "regular" CBT the most ::important thing?  I see my pdoc tomorrow and will ask for an adjustment ::to meds and a referral to a therapist.  I did see a therapist a 2 years ::ago but didn’t think her approach (not CBT) was ultimately helpful for ::me.  Our insurance is lousy this year so money is a factor too; however ::I have realized that I must take action to start to heal.  There is a a ::highly respected pschologist who works here in Allentown (can’t think ::of his name–some of you have seen him–I would know his name if you ::mentioned it) but he doesn’t do the therapy bit anymore, although his ::wife does as well as one of his colleagues.  I think I’m on the right ::track but could use advice to make the most of my brief visit with pdoc ::tomorrow and to help find the most helpful therapist for me.  I went ::through several a few years ago and it was months of wasted time/money. :: Right now I don’t feel like I have months to search.  I’ve read the ::CBT books but need more help than self-help.  I’d appreciate any input ::and will let you all know what happens Tomorrow at my apointment.  Many ::thanks,  Beverly ::The CBT guy….just remembered his name–Frank Dattilio. Dear Beverly, I`m so sorry about all the sad news you`ve received. Anyone would be rocked to the core with so much bad news in such a short amount of time. Loss is one of the hardest things to deal with, each loss seems to compound the ones before it. About you having PTSD? I don`t know, only a professional could tell you. From what I`ve read PTSD happens because of traumatic events, like accidents, being raped or robbed or witnessing something traumatic, like Sept 11th. What you are going through is definitely traumatic but I don`t know if it falls into the guidelines of PTSD. Perhaps it is your symptoms that make this social worker believe you are suffering from PTSD. Just click on disorders, and you`ll find PTSD and the diagnostic criteria for it. www.mentalhealth.com http://panicdisorder.about.com/od/ptsd/ About tomorrows pdoc appt. Make sure to right down everything you want to discuss with him and bring that piece of paper with you. It will help keep you on track. You may also want to bring a  copy of your original post in this thread and have him read it. He`ll get a very good idea what you`re going through and can hopefully recommend the appropriate therapist for you. Maybe this link can offer you some tips on choosing the right therapist. http://panicdisorder.about.com/library/help/blrighttherapist.htm http://panicdisorder.about.com/od/therapybasics/index.htm In my opinion, you would benefit from a grief support group, whether that be online, or in real life, or both. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/grief_support/ Good luck with tomorrows pdoc appt. Hopefully he`ll get you on the right track with a therapist and a good tweaking of your meds Remember, we are here for you during this difficult time. {{{{{Bev}}}}} Jackie ~*~I`m an angel! Honest The horns are just there to keep my halo up straight~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hair Cell Regeneration

Question:

Make up all the words you wish. Make up your own definitions as you please. Just don’t get upset when you are shown to be a nitwit. Ardway – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -pww wrote: > A dictionary of scientific terms is not God’s word. > ‘Stem-ness’ might be induced in a cell. Perhaps this is what happened in the > experiments described in the ‘obscure’ citation. > The existence of a strange word like stem-ness suggests that scientists are > not as sure about stem cells as you are. > pieter > "ardway" <el…@medblock.edu> wrote in message > news:lKR2e.729$WM6.623@okepread07… >>pww wrote: >>>I thought cells responsible for regeneration are by definition stem >>>cells. However I may be wrong and not everybody has exactly the same >>>definition of stem-cell. >>Scientific definition is not a democracy. Anybody who bothers to look in a >>dictionary of scientific terms knows what a stem cell is. >>Ardway

Response:

John, Welcome aboard. Glad to find another person in you that has expressed interest and support in hair cell regeneration. Thus I thought I’d also let you know of a very good discussion board, the HearingExchange Forum. That provides a good source of information, consisting of conversations and postings on hair cell regeneration and other such related research. You’ll have to register first before participating in this board but it’ll be worth it: http://www.hearingexchange.com/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi And once you registered, scroll further down on the above page to where it says "Hair Cell Research" to find the discussions on hair cell regeneration and such related topics. Let me know if you have any questions.

Response:

"johnjsch" <johnj…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:1112120495.851782.26980@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com… >   I am seeking to find "wealthy" donors–who > may just wish to become  significant benefactors.  I can provide all > the information needed –how many $ are still needed–some of which > will be "matched" by a major foundation.

Perhaps you should contact some of those Nigerians who have all that unclaimed money to split.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Anthony wrote: > "johnjsch" <johnj…@aol.com> wrote in message > news:1112120495.851782.26980@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com… >>  I am seeking to find "wealthy" donors–who >>may just wish to become  significant benefactors.  I can provide all >>the information needed –how many $ are still needed–some of which >>will be "matched" by a major foundation. > Perhaps you should contact some of those Nigerians who have all that > unclaimed money to split.

Thanx Anthony. Very droll. BTW, there has never been a single hair cell regenerated in any mammal. Birds do it all the time. though. It’s genetic with them. Nothing has changed. The science of the proposed funding is highly suspect. But I wish it were true. C. Ardway

Response:

It is like newts that regrow their limbs after you cut them off.. However, most of the genes and molecules involved are the same in all vertebrates, so if you can pinpoint the differences, you may have a route towards a solution for the problem. Perhaps sometime in the 22nd century… Of course, stem cell research might be the way, but as you know Christian politicians do everything to block this avenue. Amph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> BTW, there has never been a single hair cell regenerated in any mammal. > Birds do it all the time. though. It’s genetic with them.

Response:

Quite a jump from hair cell regeneration to evil Christians. Stem cells have nothing to do with the situation. Ardway – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -amphioxus wrote: > It is like newts that regrow their limbs after you cut them off.. However, > most of the genes and molecules involved are the same in all vertebrates, so > if you can pinpoint the differences, you may have a route towards a solution > for the problem. Perhaps sometime in the 22nd century… Of course, stem > cell research might be the way, but as you know Christian politicians do > everything to block this avenue. > Amph >>BTW, there has never been a single hair cell regenerated in any mammal. >>Birds do it all the time. though. It’s genetic with them.

Response:

Of course stem cells (not necessarily embryonic stem cells) have everything to do with regeneration. Also interesting though not about stem cells and neither about evil christians: Nat Med. 2005 Mar;11(3):271-276. Epub 2005 Feb 13. In the mammalian auditory system, sensory cell loss resulting from aging, ototoxic drugs, infections, overstimulation and other causes is irreversible and leads to permanent sensorineural hearing loss. To restore hearing, it is necessary to generate new functional hair cells. One potential way to regenerate hair cells is to induce a phenotypic transdifferentiation of nonsensory cells that remain in the deaf cochlea. Here we report that Atoh1, a gene also known as Math1 encoding a basic helix-loop-helix transcription factor and key regulator of hair cell development, induces regeneration of hair cells and substantially improves hearing thresholds in the mature deaf inner ear after delivery to nonsensory cells through adenovectors. This is the first demonstration of cellular and functional repair in the organ of Corti of a mature deaf mammal. The data suggest a new therapeutic approach based on expressing crucial developmental genes for cellular and functional restoration in the damaged auditory epithelium and other sensory systems. Perhaps our grandchildren will profit from this, but presumably nature/ evolution/ God (e.g. the one of the Evil Christians)  has a reason to express the Atoh-gene in the cochlea, so inactivating it will probably cause a lot  of trouble. "ardway" <el…@medblock.edu> wrote in message

news:tMw2e.682$WM6.626@okepread07… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Quite a jump from hair cell regeneration to evil Christians. > Stem cells have nothing to do with the situation. > Ardway > amphioxus wrote: >> It is like newts that regrow their limbs after you cut them off.. >> However, most of the genes and molecules involved are the same in all >> vertebrates, so if you can pinpoint the differences, you may have a route >> towards a solution

Response:

ardway wrote: > BTW, there has never been a single hair cell regenerated in any mammal. > Birds do it all the time. though. It’s genetic with them.

As far as I know, birds also regenerate brain cells. Mammals don’t. There seems to be a growth inhibitor in mammals. On the other hand I would be extremely cautious about inhibiting growth inhibitors. That could turn out cancerogene. Pure speculation on my part, though. best regards Peter

Response:

I’d rather say differentiation inhibitor. Or perhaps it is a matter of  a stemcell survival factor. The problem you raise is not speculation, it is straightforward thinking. However, it is apparently a problem that birds have solved, because birds do not get cancer all the time. "Peter Weis" <p.w…@email.dk.slet> wrote in message

news:424acc76$0$67263$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ardway wrote: >> BTW, there has never been a single hair cell regenerated in any mammal. >> Birds do it all the time. though. It’s genetic with them. > As far as I know, birds also regenerate brain cells. Mammals don’t. > There seems to be a growth inhibitor in mammals. > On the other hand I would be extremely cautious about inhibiting growth > inhibitors. That could turn out cancerogene. > Pure speculation on my part, though.

Response:

Are you aware that your citation completely refutes your statement?  Of course stem cells (not necessarily embryonic stem cells) have everything   to do with regeneration. Most people who argue specific points actually read their citations before posting them. Stem cells have nothing to do with cochlear hair-cell regeneration, which has never happened in any mammal at any time anyway. You just enjoy bashing Christians. Ardway – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -pieter wrote: > Of course stem cells (not necessarily embryonic stem cells) have everything > to do with regeneration. > Also interesting though not about stem cells and neither about evil > christians: > Nat Med. 2005 Mar;11(3):271-276. Epub 2005 Feb 13. > In the mammalian auditory system, sensory cell loss resulting from aging, > ototoxic drugs, infections, overstimulation and other causes is irreversible > and leads to permanent sensorineural hearing loss. To restore hearing, it is > necessary to generate new functional hair cells. One potential way to > regenerate hair cells is to induce a phenotypic transdifferentiation of > nonsensory cells that remain in the deaf cochlea. Here we report that Atoh1, > a gene also known as Math1 encoding a basic helix-loop-helix transcription > factor and key regulator of hair cell development, induces regeneration of > hair cells and substantially improves hearing thresholds in the mature deaf > inner ear after delivery to nonsensory cells through adenovectors. This is > the first demonstration of cellular and functional repair in the organ of > Corti of a mature deaf mammal. The data suggest a new therapeutic approach > based on expressing crucial developmental genes for cellular and functional > restoration in the damaged auditory epithelium and other sensory systems. > Perhaps our grandchildren will profit from this, but presumably nature/ > evolution/ God (e.g. the one of the Evil Christians)  has a reason to > express the Atoh-gene in the cochlea, so inactivating it will probably cause > a lot  of trouble. > "ardway" <el…@medblock.edu> wrote in message > news:tMw2e.682$WM6.626@okepread07… >>Quite a jump from hair cell regeneration to evil Christians. >>Stem cells have nothing to do with the situation. >>Ardway >>amphioxus wrote: >>>It is like newts that regrow their limbs after you cut them off.. >>>However, most of the genes and molecules involved are the same in all >>>vertebrates, so if you can pinpoint the differences, you may have a route >>>towards a solution

Response:

pww wrote: > I thought cells responsible for regeneration are by definition stem cells. > However I may be wrong and not everybody has exactly the same definition of > stem-cell.

Scientific definition is not a democracy. Anybody who bothers to look in a dictionary of scientific terms knows what a stem cell is. Ardway

Response:

A dictionary of scientific terms is not God’s word. ‘Stem-ness’ might be induced in a cell. Perhaps this is what happened in the experiments described in the ‘obscure’ citation. The existence of a strange word like stem-ness suggests that scientists are not as sure about stem cells as you are. pieter "ardway" <el…@medblock.edu> wrote in message

news:lKR2e.729$WM6.623@okepread07… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> pww wrote: >> I thought cells responsible for regeneration are by definition stem >> cells. However I may be wrong and not everybody has exactly the same >> definition of stem-cell. > Scientific definition is not a democracy. Anybody who bothers to look in a > dictionary of scientific terms knows what a stem cell is. > Ardway

Response:

amphioxus wrote: > Pieter wrote literally ‘ (snipped) indicating that he was aware that his citation was not an example of his > stem cell point. It was not refuting it, either.

Funny, I took his writing as figurative or phantasmagorical. The issue was stem cell research’s inapplicability to inner ear hair cell regeneration. Citations quoting obscure references to arcane developments in another area are fair game, as the intent was to obfuscate, which you cannot deny. Ardway

Response:

Nature Medicin is not an obscure Journal.  Although it is not Nature itself, it still is a top Journal,. Why do you say "another area"? It is about the "hair’ cells in the cochlea. However it is true that it is not about stem cell research. One should not mix two different messages in one post, which is what caused the confusion. God bless you. "ardway" <el…@medblock.edu> wrote in message

news:yLE2e.697$WM6.665@okepread07… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> amphioxus wrote: >> Pieter wrote literally ‘ (snipped) indicating that he was aware that his >> citation was not an example of his stem cell point. It was not refuting >> it, either. > Funny, I took his writing as figurative or phantasmagorical. > The issue was stem cell research’s inapplicability to inner ear hair cell > regeneration. Citations quoting obscure references to arcane developments > in another area are fair game, as the intent was to obfuscate, which you > cannot deny. > Ardway

Response:

My citation refers to a non-stem cell reated, non-regeneration related solution for the problem, as I already explicitly wrote myself. I thought cells responsible for regeneration are by definition stem cells. However I may be wrong and not everybody has exactly the same definition of stem-cell. Some of my best friends and most of my family are Christians. "ardway" <el…@medblock.edu> wrote in message

news:KiC2e.693$WM6.261@okepread07… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Are you aware that your citation completely refutes your statement?  Of > course stem cells (not necessarily embryonic stem cells) have everything >  to do with regeneration. > Most people who argue specific points actually read their citations before > posting them. > Stem cells have nothing to do with cochlear hair-cell regeneration, which > has never happened in any mammal at any time anyway. > You just enjoy bashing Christians. > Ardway > pieter wrote: >> Of course stem cells (not necessarily embryonic stem cells) have >> everything to do with regeneration. >> Also interesting though not about stem cells and neither about evil >> christians: >> Nat Med. 2005 Mar;11(3):271-276. Epub 2005 Feb 13. >> In the mammalian auditory system, sensory cell loss resulting from aging, >> ototoxic drugs, infections, overstimulation and other causes is >> irreversible and leads to permanent sensorineural hearing loss. To >> restore hearing, it is necessary to generate new functional hair cells. >> One potential way to regenerate hair cells is to induce a phenotypic >> transdifferentiation of nonsensory cells that remain in the deaf cochlea. >> Here we report that Atoh1, a gene also known as Math1 encoding a basic >> helix-loop-helix transcription factor and key regulator of hair cell >> development, induces regeneration of hair cells and substantially >> improves hearing thresholds in the mature deaf inner ear after delivery >> to nonsensory cells through adenovectors. This is the first demonstration >> of cellular and functional repair in the organ of Corti of a mature deaf >> mammal. The data suggest a new therapeutic approach based on expressing >> crucial developmental genes for cellular and functional restoration in >> the damaged auditory epithelium and other sensory systems. >> Perhaps our grandchildren will profit from this, but presumably nature/ >> evolution/ God (e.g. the one of the Evil Christians)  has a reason to >> express the Atoh-gene in the cochlea, so inactivating it will probably >> cause a lot  of trouble. >> "ardway" <el…@medblock.edu> wrote in message >> news:tMw2e.682$WM6.626@okepread07… >>>Quite a jump from hair cell regeneration to evil Christians. >>>Stem cells have nothing to do with the situation. >>>Ardway >>>amphioxus wrote: >>>>It is like newts that regrow their limbs after you cut them off.. >>>>However, most of the genes and molecules involved are the same in all >>>>vertebrates, so if you can pinpoint the differences, you may have a >>>>route towards a solution

Response:

Pieter wrote literally ‘..Also interesting though not about stem cells… ‘, indicating that he was aware that his citation was not an example of his stem cell point. It was not refuting it, either.It remains possible that wat is described as ‘phenotypic transdifferentiation’ is actually either the activation of existing stem cells, or the induction of cells with stem cell properties. "ardway" <el…@medblock.edu> wrote in message

news:KiC2e.693$WM6.261@okepread07… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Are you aware that your citation completely refutes your statement?  Of > course stem cells (not necessarily embryonic stem cells) have everything >  to do with regeneration. > Most people who argue specific points actually read their citations before > posting them. > Stem cells have nothing to do with cochlear hair-cell regeneration, which > has never happened in any mammal at any time anyway. > You just enjoy bashing Christians. > Ardway > pieter wrote: >> Of course stem cells (not necessarily embryonic stem cells) have >> everything to do with regeneration. >> Also interesting though not about stem cells and neither about evil >> christians: >> Nat Med. 2005 Mar;11(3):271-276. Epub 2005 Feb 13. >> In the mammalian auditory system, sensory cell loss resulting from aging, >> ototoxic drugs, infections, overstimulation and other causes is >> irreversible and leads to permanent sensorineural hearing loss. To >> restore hearing, it is necessary to generate new functional hair cells. >> One potential way to regenerate hair cells is to induce a phenotypic >> transdifferentiation of nonsensory cells that remain in the deaf cochlea. >> Here we report that Atoh1, a gene also known as Math1 encoding a basic >> helix-loop-helix transcription factor and key regulator of hair cell >> development, induces regeneration of hair cells and substantially >> improves hearing thresholds in the mature deaf inner ear after delivery >> to nonsensory cells through adenovectors. This is the first demonstration >> of cellular and functional repair in the organ of Corti of a mature deaf >> mammal. The data suggest a new therapeutic approach based on expressing >> crucial developmental genes for cellular and functional restoration in >> the damaged auditory epithelium and other sensory systems. >> Perhaps our grandchildren will profit from this, but presumably nature/ >> evolution/ God (e.g. the one of the Evil Christians)  has a reason to >> express the Atoh-gene in the cochlea, so inactivating it will probably >> cause a lot  of trouble. >> "ardway" <el…@medblock.edu> wrote in message >> news:tMw2e.682$WM6.626@okepread07… >>>Quite a jump from hair cell regeneration to evil Christians. >>>Stem cells have nothing to do with the situation. >>>Ardway >>>amphioxus wrote: >>>>It is like newts that regrow their limbs after you cut them off.. >>>>However, most of the genes and molecules involved are the same in all >>>>vertebrates, so if you can pinpoint the differences, you may have a >>>>route towards a solution

Response:

I am a new member of this group .  I wish to call your attention to a major research program at the University of Washington that is halfway to finding a possible CURE–by regenerating the "hair cells" of the inner ear.  They have demonstrated this is in birds, mice and guinea pigs –and humans are not far behind—they estimate it at 6-10 years –IF– they can secure enough funds to complete and to centralize the program across the country.  I am seeking to find "wealthy" donors–who may just wish to become  significant benefactors.  I can provide all the information needed –how many $ are still needed–some of which will be "matched" by a major foundation. I am acting strictly as a volunteer–motivated by the profound hearing loss in my two granddaughters. Any ideas, names, or even desires to collaborate with me –please contact me directly at johnj…@aol.com.

Response:

Tell us more. Some explanation, websites, names, scientific publications, NIH grant ## etc. You are not seriously thinking that wealthy (in quotes or not) people are going to react to a post in this newsgroup? Do You? Amph "johnjsch" <johnj…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:1112120495.851782.26980@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I am a new member of this group .  I wish to call your attention to a > major research program at the University of Washington that is halfway > to finding a possible CURE–by regenerating the "hair cells" of the > inner ear.  They have demonstrated this is in birds, mice and guinea > pigs –and humans are not far behind—they estimate it at 6-10 years > –IF– they can secure enough funds to complete and to centralize the > program across the country.  I am seeking to find "wealthy" donors–who > may just wish to become  significant benefactors.  I can provide all > the information needed –how many $ are still needed–some of which > will be "matched" by a major foundation. > I am acting strictly as a volunteer–motivated by the profound hearing > loss in my two granddaughters. > Any ideas, names, or even desires to collaborate with me –please > contact me directly at johnj…@aol.com.

Response:

help please!

Question:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:11:57 -0500, "HearMeDude" <nos…@hotmail.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I would be happy to explain…. Sorry, didn’t have the time before…. >The audiologist is obviously just trying to sell the most expensive >instrument. AND FURTHERMORE, either doesn’t know how to program them, or >doesn’t know how to communicate with a patient that is hard of hearing. In >either case, he is incompetent. >As stated in another reply, there was no mention of a lack of power…. >just a lack of power in the correct areas. Makes me wonder if you are an >audiologist that doesn’t actually listen to what is being said. He stated >one thing, you heard another. Perhaps you could go back and read the >entire post again? >Please pay particular attention to what is actually being said, NOT >getting caught up in your decision of how to help before getting all the >facts. >So…. In conclusion, as I hop down from my soapbox, he should get a >hearing care professional that can actually hear what is being said. (Not >just verbally, but actually comprehend).

The "incompetence" of the Audie may simply consist of trying to fit Bido with an underpowered CIC, against his own recommendations. My hearing isn’t as bad as Bido’s, but at -65db at around 2500Hz and up, I was lucky in finding my Audie who told me up front that my only solution was a powerful BTE model. The problem Bido has, is that he has a 70+ percent hearing loss, and insists on wearing  CIC’s, instead of the more powerful BTE’s. Certainly his choice, and right, but one that very possibly will not ever allow him to hear the way he could. I quote the pertinent portion of his post below. No, I am not an Audiologist. And from your post, you are certainly not either. Could you please provide the group some citations that prove that a CIC is powerful enough to correct the severe degree of hearing loss that Bido has? Bido: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"BTW, I got 70% loss on the right ear and 90% on the left >>one. Not only the left one is almost deaf, it has a discrimination >>problem, so it is technically just a decor. Despite growing with this >>handicap I have never accepted my identity of a handicapped person (and >>never will), sometimes I don’t even believe I am hard-of-hearing. I >>always tried to hide the hearing aid and apparently my hearing loss has >>increased over the years that the CIC is no longer an option. Because I >>insisted that I want to stay with the CIC (and please don’t tell me >>why) the audiologist tried a digital Starkey which turned out to be a >>horrible experience so I tried the Phonak and a more expensive Starkey >>(all CIC) none of them helped me even hear better than with the analog. >>The noise is over-amplified…"

Response:

hi all, I am 30 and I’ve been wearing a hearing aid in my right ear for over 14 years now. The causes of the hearing problem are most likely genetics since my dad is also hard of hearing. I’ve been wearing analog hearing aids until 2 months when my Starkey CIC broke down. I took it to an audiologist who sent it to Starkey. Starkey got back to him saying that the hearing aid is obselete and they don’t make the circuit anymore! I didn’t really have time to argue with that so I decided to go for a digital one. BTW, I got 70% loss on the right ear and 90% on the left one. Not only the left one is almost deaf, it has a discrimination problem, so it is technically just a decor. Despite growing with this handicap I have never accepted my identity of a handicapped person (and never will), sometimes I don’t even believe I am hard-of-hearing. I always tried to hide the hearing aid and apparently my hearing loss has increased over the years that the CIC is no longer an option. Because I insisted that I want to stay with the CIC (and please don’t tell me why) the audiologist tried a digital Starkey which turned out to be a horrible experience so I tried the Phonak and a more expensive Starkey (all CIC) none of them helped me even hear better than with the analog. The noise is over-amplified and not the voice. I can hear something falling on the ground far away from me and not the person who is standing in front of me and talking. I got into depression to the point that I was really thinking of committing suicide. I got so tired of going to the audiologist almost 3 times a week (and still going) for over two months now so I decided to go with a bigger one (ITE) even though the audiologist said it is not that different from the CIC in terms of power. It is still the same sh*t!. Any feedback please, Bido

Response:

On 18 Feb 2005 19:24:33 -0800, "bido" <sideb_…@yahoo.com> wrote: > …sometimes I don’t even believe I am hard-of-hearing. I >always tried to hide the hearing aid and apparently my hearing loss has >increased over the years that the CIC is no longer an option. Because I >insisted that I want to stay with the CIC (and please don’t tell me >why) the audiologist tried a digital Starkey which turned out to be a >horrible experience so I tried the Phonak and a more expensive Starkey >(all CIC) none of them helped me even hear better than with the analog.

Believe it. At 70 and 90 percent loss you are hard of hearing and will only be able to hear the best that you may with a good pair of the more powerful BTE’s. Get a good pair of digital  BTE’s that your Audie feels comfortable programming, and hear again, or continue to insist on less powerful models against your Audies advice, and don’t. Your choice.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -bido wrote: > hi all, > I am 30 and I’ve been wearing a hearing aid in my right ear for over 14 > years now. The causes of the hearing problem are most likely genetics > since my dad is also hard of hearing. I’ve been wearing analog hearing > aids until 2 months when my Starkey CIC broke down. I took it to an > audiologist who sent it to Starkey. Starkey got back to him saying that > the hearing aid is obselete and they don’t make the circuit anymore! I > didn’t really have time to argue with that so I decided to go for a > digital one. BTW, I got 70% loss on the right ear and 90% on the left > one. Not only the left one is almost deaf, it has a discrimination > problem, so it is technically just a decor. Despite growing with this > handicap I have never accepted my identity of a handicapped person (and > never will), sometimes I don’t even believe I am hard-of-hearing. I > always tried to hide the hearing aid and apparently my hearing loss has > increased over the years that the CIC is no longer an option. Because I > insisted that I want to stay with the CIC (and please don’t tell me > why) the audiologist tried a digital Starkey which turned out to be a > horrible experience so I tried the Phonak and a more expensive Starkey > (all CIC) none of them helped me even hear better than with the analog. > The noise is over-amplified and not the voice. I can hear something > falling on the ground far away from me and not the person who is > standing in front of me and talking. I got into depression to the point > that I was really thinking of committing suicide. I got so tired of > going to the audiologist almost 3 times a week (and still going) for > over two months now so I decided to go with a bigger one (ITE) even > though the audiologist said it is not that different from the CIC in > terms of power. It is still the same sh*t!. > Any feedback please, > Bido

I think it is more important to deal with your depression. Just a friendly suggestion. On the matter of your problems with digital aids; if your previous analog circuit worked well for you, why not get another analog aid? You’ll save a lot as an extra bonus. David

Response:

A neat post. Some can’t hear others don’t listen!

Response:

Hey Dude, What we have here is the curious interaction of two groups: one of them have difficulty hearing the other, difficulty listening. It would be great if you could place your trust in your audiologist and have good hearing. However, it looks like the outcome a lot of the time is the pt. feels he gave a crapload of money to someone who doesn’t really care. And I guess there are some people who would delude themselves that this is not the case and it’s all the pt. fault. Opps! Sorry to be so negative, I won’t do it again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -HearMeDude wrote: > WOW! You did it again… made your decision in the first few sentences of > what I said…. did you miss the rest? I will keep this one short so I > don’t loose you. Go back and just read the bottom half of what I said last > time. Maybe you can pick it up that way. > And no, I am not an Audiologist, but I would be happy to test against one > anyday when it comes to fitting hearing aids. They may know more about the > inner working of the ear, but I know people. > The answer my friend, is not more power every time. If you re-read HIS > post, you will see that his hearing is not as complicated as his audie is > making it. I am firm in the belief that they were programmed incorrectly! > They still may not have worked for him personally, but the problems he > described were things that should have been fixable with programming. > Then, and only then, can you determine if they just weren’t powerful > enough! > Yes, he has a bad hearing loss! I heard that… we all heard that… but > we moved on and looked at the WHOLE picture! I have fit people with his > hearing loss with a CIC, and they were happy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -nos…@hotmail.com wrote: > WOW! You did it again… made your decision in the first few sentences of > what I said…. did you miss the rest? I will keep this one short so I > don’t loose you. Go back and just read the bottom half of what I said last > time. Maybe you can pick it up that way. > And no, I am not an Audiologist, but I would be happy to test against one > anyday when it comes to fitting hearing aids. They may know more about the > inner working of the ear, but I know people. > The answer my friend, is not more power every time. If you re-read HIS > post, you will see that his hearing is not as complicated as his audie is > making it. I am firm in the belief that they were programmed incorrectly! > They still may not have worked for him personally, but the problems he > described were things that should have been fixable with programming. > Then, and only then, can you determine if they just weren’t powerful > enough! > Yes, he has a bad hearing loss! I heard that… we all heard that… but > we moved on and looked at the WHOLE picture! I have fit people with his > hearing loss with a CIC, and they were happy.

Thanks! tony8…@duskmail.com

Response:

WOW! You did it again… made your decision in the first few sentences of what I said…. did you miss the rest? I will keep this one short so I don’t loose you. Go back and just read the bottom half of what I said last time. Maybe you can pick it up that way. And no, I am not an Audiologist, but I would be happy to test against one anyday when it comes to fitting hearing aids. They may know more about the inner working of the ear, but I know people. The answer my friend, is not more power every time. If you re-read HIS post, you will see that his hearing is not as complicated as his audie is making it. I am firm in the belief that they were programmed incorrectly! They still may not have worked for him personally, but the problems he described were things that should have been fixable with programming. Then, and only then, can you determine if they just weren’t powerful enough! Yes, he has a bad hearing loss! I heard that… we all heard that… but we moved on and looked at the WHOLE picture! I have fit people with his hearing loss with a CIC, and they were happy.

Response:

I would be happy to explain…. Sorry, didn’t have the time before…. The audiologist is obviously just trying to sell the most expensive instrument. AND FURTHERMORE, either doesn’t know how to program them, or doesn’t know how to communicate with a patient that is hard of hearing. In either case, he is incompetent. As stated in another reply, there was no mention of a lack of power…. just a lack of power in the correct areas. Makes me wonder if you are an audiologist that doesn’t actually listen to what is being said. He stated one thing, you heard another. Perhaps you could go back and read the entire post again? Please pay particular attention to what is actually being said, NOT getting caught up in your decision of how to help before getting all the facts. So…. In conclusion, as I hop down from my soapbox, he should get a hearing care professional that can actually hear what is being said. (Not just verbally, but actually comprehend).

Response:

Serpent barfed: > This is not the first time Bido has posted his story, and all of this > has been discussed before, and solutions offered.  Here is his latest > original post that you missed:

<snip> Thanks for repeating the OPs post. With a 70% loss I agree that a BTE would be a necessity. The fact that someone really struggles to hear anything anyone says is a lot more obvious than a BTE! Also sounds like this person hasn’t given digital aids a chance, they do sound different from analogue ones and I needed a little while to adapt to them — frag

Response:

Serpent wrote: > We have here a person that is in total denial about the severe degree > of his hearing loss, who Insists that his Audie ONLY fit him with the > less powerful CIC aids, that do not have the power to correct his > hearing, the Audie does as his patient wishes, and the OP, of course, > is not able to hear the way he would with the BTE’s, that he simply > Refuses to wear!

I might not be understanding what is happening here. It seems he was OK with his last analog CICs until they failed. He was fitted with replacement CICs. The only difference is the circuits are digital. Would it not be logical that the variable that was changed may be the problem? > This is not a matter of the Audiologists degree, but rather a matter > of the OP refusing to wear a hearing aid powerful enough to correct > his hearing loss.

I see nothing in his post that suggests he is not getting enough power. Didn’t he mention something about over-amplification? I’m very puzzled. Mr. Spock

Response:

On 20 Feb 2005 21:41:10 -0800, kkerri…@ozemail.com.au wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Up to  point as Evelyn would say. The first time I made contact with an >audiologist, and after she tested my hearing, I expressed the usual >desire for an invisible hearing aid. She laid it on the line – for my >degree of hearing loss she would NOT, repeat NOT, fit anything other >than a BTE because no CIC had the necesary herbs. >I suppose not all audiologists are as strong-minded as mine – some may >be willing to go along with a client who thinks he knows better than >he/she does.  But that is less than I expect from a professional. >Personally I found the flat-out rejection of CIC by my lady reassuring >(as far as her competence was concerned) and my  subsequent experience >has confirmed that I was singularly fortunate to find my way to her, >Not that I disagree with the need for bido to come to grips with his >depression and hang-ups.  One of the best things this group does is >enable frank exchanges on sensitive subjects such as this – not so much >to solve problems but to identify their existence.

I had a similar experience. I have around -65 db loss above around 2500 Hz, in both ears. First Audie in the ENT office was perfectly happy to sell me a CIC, even though it wouldn’t have been powerful enough. My second Audie rejected the CIC option totally, and would only consider the more powerful BTE’s. I was very lucky to find my second Audiologist, and have been happily hearing ever since!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -bido wrote: > Thank you all for your replies. > I will probably go with an ITE analog for now and postpone wearing a > BTE as much as I possible. I also think I am not fit for a digital one. > It just does not make sense for a digital hearing aid to perform worse > than an analog one. I guess it is either the audiologist (who graduated > when I was 2 y/o) who doesn’t know how to adjust the aid or something > is wrong with the HA itself. I will have to convince to the audiologist > to replace the HA again though for the second time since I first got a > CIC and the trial period is over. > I’ve done some research and clearly there is no promising things > happening in this field in the near future, definitely not in my > lifetime. I am looking for something that makes one hear normal or > close and especially look normal! I hope they will find a cure one day > to this ugly disease. In the meantime, I will save my hard-of-hearing > sperms to myself and not let other people suffer like I do now.

I’ve had some experence with digital hearing aids and think there is something in the digital conversion process that changes the quality of the sound. I can’t put my finger on it, but this may account for the perception of loss of clarity. The fact that digital aids impart some time delay may play into this. What I’m saying is that digital is not always the way to go. On the other hand, your description of hearing things far away instead of a person nearby seems to be an indication that the aid might not have properly adjusted. On the other, other hand, if analog aids have been working fine with you for half your life why change horses in mid-stream? I sincerely hope you find a good pair of aids, looks like it’s all dependent on you audiologist. If he’s good, you will. David

Response:

Up to  point as Evelyn would say. The first time I made contact with an audiologist, and after she tested my hearing, I expressed the usual desire for an invisible hearing aid. She laid it on the line – for my degree of hearing loss she would NOT, repeat NOT, fit anything other than a BTE because no CIC had the necesary herbs. I suppose not all audiologists are as strong-minded as mine – some may be willing to go along with a client who thinks he knows better than he/she does.  But that is less than I expect from a professional. Personally I found the flat-out rejection of CIC by my lady reassuring (as far as her competence was concerned) and my  subsequent experience has confirmed that I was singularly fortunate to find my way to her, Not that I disagree with the need for bido to come to grips with his depression and hang-ups.  One of the best things this group does is enable frank exchanges on sensitive subjects such as this – not so much to solve problems but to identify their existence.

Response:

Good point. We can only speak from our own experience and whether that is relevant to another person depends on whether the nature of their loss is similar.  I have profound hearing loss – and nothing above 1400 Hz.  The objective is to have sufficient hearing to be able to function socially and economically. If CICs will do the trick then fine. For me they were never an option. A competent audiologist, after evaluating your hearing, should be able to advise on the type of aid required to enable you to ‘go about your daily life’ – not a bad definition of the objective.  If a CIC will not do this they will say so and recommend a BTE. As I said in an earlier post, my audie refused straght out to even consider a CIC in my case.

Response:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 02:48:35 +0000 (UTC), "Richard Wood" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<ne…@ukrm.co.uk> wrote: >Serpent barfed: >> We have here a person that is in total denial about the severe degree >> of his hearing loss, who Insists that his Audie ONLY fit him with the >> less powerful CIC aids, that do not have the power to correct his >> hearing, the Audie does as his patient wishes, and the OP, of course, >> is not able to hear the way he would with the BTE’s, that he simply >> Refuses to wear! >Did you consider that the hearing boost that the CIC aids gives the OP >is perfectly acceptable to the OP and they are able to go about their >daily life perfectly normally? (sorry, I don’t have the original post >available for me to read) >I do find it slightly amusing that some people here insist that all >deaf people should adhere to their reasoning and we should all "go for >the best possible hearing we can get" even though for many of us a >lesser degree of hearing improvement is perfectly acceptable, with the >added advantage that we can wear CICs.

This is not the first time Bido has posted his story, and all of this has been discussed before, and solutions offered.  Here is his latest original post that you missed: Bido: "hi all, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I am 30 and I’ve been wearing a hearing aid in my right ear for over 14 >years now. The causes of the hearing problem are most likely genetics >since my dad is also hard of hearing. I’ve been wearing analog hearing >aids until 2 months when my Starkey CIC broke down. I took it to an >audiologist who sent it to Starkey. Starkey got back to him saying that >the hearing aid is obselete and they don’t make the circuit anymore! I >didn’t really have time to argue with that so I decided to go for a >digital one. BTW, I got 70% loss on the right ear and 90% on the left >one. Not only the left one is almost deaf, it has a discrimination >problem, so it is technically just a decor. Despite growing with this >handicap I have never accepted my identity of a handicapped person (and >never will), sometimes I don’t even believe I am hard-of-hearing. I >always tried to hide the hearing aid and apparently my hearing loss has >increased over the years that the CIC is no longer an option. Because I >insisted that I want to stay with the CIC (and please don’t tell me >why) the audiologist tried a digital Starkey which turned out to be a >horrible experience so I tried the Phonak and a more expensive Starkey >(all CIC) none of them helped me even hear better than with the analog. >The noise is over-amplified and not the voice. I can hear something >falling on the ground far away from me and not the person who is >standing in front of me and talking. I got into depression to the point >that I was really thinking of committing suicide. I got so tired of >going to the audiologist almost 3 times a week (and still going) for >over two months now so I decided to go with a bigger one (ITE) even >though the audiologist said it is not that different from the CIC in >terms of power. It is still the same sh*t!. >Any feedback please, >Bido

Response:

Thank you all for your replies. I will probably go with an ITE analog for now and postpone wearing a BTE as much as I possible. I also think I am not fit for a digital one. It just does not make sense for a digital hearing aid to perform worse than an analog one. I guess it is either the audiologist (who graduated when I was 2 y/o) who doesn’t know how to adjust the aid or something is wrong with the HA itself. I will have to convince to the audiologist to replace the HA again though for the second time since I first got a CIC and the trial period is over. I’ve done some research and clearly there is no promising things happening in this field in the near future, definitely not in my lifetime. I am looking for something that makes one hear normal or close and especially look normal! I hope they will find a cure one day to this ugly disease. In the meantime, I will save my hard-of-hearing sperms to myself and not let other people suffer like I do now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Serpent wrote: > On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 02:25:33 -0500, "HearMeDude" <nos…@hotmail.com> > wrote: > >Get a new Audiologist! They may have a degree… but let’s face it…. > >college is just for parties! (Ok… a little learning, but your guy/gal > >obviously partied too much!) > Please explain this post. > We have here a person that is in total denial about the severe degree > of his hearing loss, who Insists that his Audie ONLY fit him with the > less powerful CIC aids, that do not have the power to correct his > hearing, the Audie does as his patient wishes, and the OP, of course, > is not able to hear the way he would with the BTE’s, that he simply > Refuses to wear! > This is not a matter of the Audiologists degree, but rather a matter > of the OP refusing to wear a hearing aid powerful enough to correct > his hearing loss. > Are you suggesting that he go to another Audiologist, who would Refuse > to fit him with the weaker CIC aid, at all??? > That is the only way I could make any sense of your post, giving the > context of the original poster.

Response:

Serpent barfed: > We have here a person that is in total denial about the severe degree > of his hearing loss, who Insists that his Audie ONLY fit him with the > less powerful CIC aids, that do not have the power to correct his > hearing, the Audie does as his patient wishes, and the OP, of course, > is not able to hear the way he would with the BTE’s, that he simply > Refuses to wear!

Did you consider that the hearing boost that the CIC aids gives the OP is perfectly acceptable to the OP and they are able to go about their daily life perfectly normally? (sorry, I don’t have the original post available for me to read) I do find it slightly amusing that some people here insist that all deaf people should adhere to their reasoning and we should all "go for the best possible hearing we can get" even though for many of us a lesser degree of hearing improvement is perfectly acceptable, with the added advantage that we can wear CICs. — frag

Response:

Get a new Audiologist! They may have a degree… but let’s face it…. college is just for parties! (Ok… a little learning, but your guy/gal obviously partied too much!)

Response:

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 02:25:33 -0500, "HearMeDude" <nos…@hotmail.com> wrote: >Get a new Audiologist! They may have a degree… but let’s face it…. >college is just for parties! (Ok… a little learning, but your guy/gal >obviously partied too much!)

Please explain this post. We have here a person that is in total denial about the severe degree of his hearing loss, who Insists that his Audie ONLY fit him with the less powerful CIC aids, that do not have the power to correct his hearing, the Audie does as his patient wishes, and the OP, of course, is not able to hear the way he would with the BTE’s, that he simply Refuses to wear! This is not a matter of the Audiologists degree, but rather a matter of the OP refusing to wear a hearing aid powerful enough to correct his hearing loss. Are you suggesting that he go to another Audiologist, who would Refuse to fit him with the weaker CIC aid, at all??? That is the only way I could make any sense of your post, giving the context of the original poster.

Response:

3 Weeks No Luck

Question:

Should we just call him "E"? In article <10kuvo410d5k…@news.supernews.com>, OOH!R…@USMC.net says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Susan" <susanbl…@snet.net> wrote in message > news:MPG.1bb69b5dd4f290f39896d9@news.snet.sbcglobal.net… > > An ENT is an otologist, actually it is an otorhinolyringologist. > My otologist colleague gets offended when called an otorhinolaryngologist, > or ENT. He claims that he hasn’t looked down a throat or up a nose in > decades. He thinks he’s occupying the OTO subsubspecialty, and in fact > wishes there were a Meniere’s subsubsub. > He’s mortal, though, and after a few beers he’ll answer to "Doc".

Response:

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:55:26 GMT, "jim" <j…@wiltontech.com> took a very strange rock and inscribed these words: >Probably not a good idea to call anybody who’s had a few beers an >otorhinolaryngologist.

Probably next to impossible to if you’re drinking along with them. (-; Therese Shellabarger – Civis Mundi – tlsh…@concentric.net – Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes an annual free trip around the Sun

Response:

<tlsh…@concentric.net> wrote in message

news:s8fvk01sp4jlctpbhoapnbl3pfhr0o2kf3@4ax.com… > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:55:26 GMT, "jim" <j…@wiltontech.com> took a > very strange rock and inscribed these words: > >Probably not a good idea to call anybody who’s had a few beers an > >otorhinolaryngologist.

He and I got into an argument – you might say that I became a contraotorhinolaryngologist until he got help from his friend, an anticontraotorhinolaryngologist. /no sig/

Response:

"HLE" <OORA…@USMC.ret> wrote in message

news:10l0hbli4kte776@news.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> <tlsh…@concentric.net> wrote in message > news:s8fvk01sp4jlctpbhoapnbl3pfhr0o2kf3@4ax.com… > > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:55:26 GMT, "jim" <j…@wiltontech.com> took a > > very strange rock and inscribed these words: > > >Probably not a good idea to call anybody who’s had a few beers an > > >otorhinolaryngologist. > He and I got into an argument – you might say that I became a > contraotorhinolaryngologist until he got help from his friend, an > anticontraotorhinolaryngologist. > /no sig/

My otorhinolaryngologically-challenged spell checker has no suggestions.

Response:

Thanks for the replies. The prednisone was 60mg tapering down to 10mg over 14 days. I finished it today and there was no improvement. I read up a bit on menier’s but that seems to have slightly different symptoms. I can’t get back into the doctor until late next week, but prior to the MRI he felt it was either an acoustic neuroma or an infection so I’m assuming he’ll be focusing on infection when I get back to him since the MRI was ok. I still wonder if it isn’t something like that because there is a slight tenderness around the opening of my ear. I’m starting to lose hope of this lessening or going away. At this point I’d be happy to just get rid of the tinnitus. Is there any chance of this getting any better after 3 weeks of no change? thanks, -steve

Response:

What are the symptoms you are experiencing? As for the tinnitus, I only can hope it goes away for you. I have autoimmune ear disorder for the past 3 years. For the first year or so the tinnitus really bothered me, now I don’t even notice it that  much, when I do, it’s just there. I guess I’ve gotten to a point where I can’t remember not having it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:06:58 -0400, "dsm" <dsmj…@verizon.net> wrote: >Thanks for the replies. >The prednisone was 60mg tapering down to 10mg over 14 days. I finished it >today and there was no improvement. >I read up a bit on menier’s but that seems to have slightly different >symptoms. >I can’t get back into the doctor until late next week, but prior to the >MRI he felt it was either an acoustic neuroma or an infection so I’m >assuming he’ll be focusing on infection when I get back to him since the >MRI was ok. I still wonder if it isn’t something like that because there >is a slight tenderness around the opening of my ear. >I’m starting to lose hope of this lessening or going away. At this point >I’d be happy to just get rid of the tinnitus. Is there any chance of this >getting any better after 3 weeks of no change? >thanks, >-steve

Response:

I also lost my hearing on one ear suddently one morning 1

David Clarke Reviews

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is some question of the value of ENR (Electronic Noise Reduction) in avoiding future hearing loss.  Our company investigated supplying ENR headsets in a high noise area, but decided not to, since there was no demonstrated value.  In short, ENR only works on lower frequencies, and those frequencies typically don’t affect hearing as much as higher frequencies. << … and smoking hasn’t been proven to cause cancer. If you put them on, and it seems quieter (vs a  non ENR set) then it’s probable that there is less noise entering the ear.  This probably leads to less damage (if we accept the premise that noise at that level causes damage).

Perhaps.  The general consensus is that A weighted noise is what causes hearing damage.  That weighting scale drops off below about 1000 hz, meaning that people don’t readily hear low frequency noise. People tend to feel low frequency noise more than hear it.  The ENR systems typically only work in those low frequency ranges, which is why it is felt they have limited value in avoiding hearing loss, except in extremely noisy, low frequency environments.   To put it in perspective, note that a two-bladed prop rotating at 2,000 RPM, will generate a noise frequency that is about four times the maximum rate that the ENR systems work at. I find ENR works on the higher frequencies too.  I put on my DCs passively and can still talk to people around me.  I flip on the ENR and it’s like I’ve gone deaf.

It actually doesn’t work at higher frequencies.  If you read the specifications for those systems, you will find that they typically don’t attenuate noise above about 500 or at max 1,000 Hz, which are both low frequencies.  The reason is that there is a risk of compounding noise, instead of attenuating it, as the frequencies increase.  What you are finding with the ENR system is that it reduces the low frequency noise and allows other sounds to come through more clearly.

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There is some question of the value of ENR (Electronic Noise Reduction) in avoiding future hearing loss.  Our company investigated supplying ENR headsets in a high noise area, but decided not to, since there was no demonstrated value.  In short, ENR only works on lower frequencies, and those frequencies typically don’t affect hearing as much as higher frequencies.

With DCs the passive attenuation is on par with other (non ANR) headsets. The ANR is ADDITIONAL attenuation, with main benefits being increased clarity of speech and less fatigue. They’re really designed for aircraft type noise levels (which in the big picture of things aren’t really that noisy inside) – they wouldn’t be sufficient for such things as daily chainsaw useage. If you need high frequency protection from relatively high noise environments then an aviation type headset isn’t the right tool for the job.

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Which David Clarke models offer ANR? Thanks

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My only issue with (DC) ENR is that I get a low frequency warble, probably due to a poor seal around the earpiece of my glasses.

I had that same problem, give them a call. — Dale L. Falk There is nothing – absolutely nothing – half so much worth doing as simply messing around with airplanes. http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

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I find ENR works on the higher frequencies too.  I put on my DCs passively and can still talk to people around me.  I flip on the ENR and it’s like I’ve gone deaf.

Are you saying you can no longer hear people talking?  I find the opposite..using ANR allows me to hear the jumpers in the back of the 206 talking…to their surprise sometimes. <G — Dale L. Falk There is nothing – absolutely nothing – half so much worth doing as simply messing around with airplanes. http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

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My only issue with (DC) ENR is that I get a low frequency warble, probably due to a poor seal around the earpiece of my glasses.

I had that same problem, give them a call. << What was your solution?  I called them, they suggested and sent me (free) the ear seals that go around the eyeglass earpieces and are supposed to improve the seal.  They did, a bit, but were fussy and I ended up just living with the warble. What  happened with yours? Jose — (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

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Are you saying you can no longer hear people talking?

Pretty much.  I wear them (also) when I’m outside doing noisy stuff (running a gas mower for example) and the quiet it produces is quite striking.  If somebody talks, whatever sound reaches the inside of the headset is cancelled out by the ANR and I can barely hear them.  It’s great! (of course if they are on an intercom in the plane, I hear them perfectly) Jose — (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

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That’s why you should never rely on bean counters when it comes to safety, security or comfort. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With regard to ANC, don’t even think about not getting it. I know that it seems like an expensive option now when you are starting out but if you continue to fly, you will find that the upfront cost is nothing compared to the cost of hearing aids that you will eventually need. There is some question of the value of ENR (Electronic Noise Reduction) in avoiding future hearing loss.  Our company investigated supplying ENR headsets in a high noise area, but decided not to, since there was no demonstrated value.  In short, ENR only works on lower frequencies, and those frequencies typically don’t affect hearing as much as higher frequencies. There were a couple of areas where there might have been some benefit, but they were unquantifyable, so the company couldn’t put a dollar value on the systems.  The use of the systems might have led in a possible reduction in fatigue, resulting in improved alertness, and there might have been improved clarity in conversations, reducing communication error.

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All joking aside, the single thread that seems to consistently bind all models of lightspeed is their unreliability. From what I’ve read (from people who have allegedly owned them) I wouldn’t touch them with a 10 foot pole.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cockpit, I’ve read of people who’ve sent them back a dozen times or more Well, I’d wager you’ve read about exactly ONE person who’s done that. And he’s gotten one for free now. You also find one person here who hates his (ex-)Cirrus. This is Usenet… — Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am a student pilot hoping to take my checkride within the next month (PPL/A). I am after a David Clarke Headset but am not sure which one to buy. Does anyone know of a good website that has independent reviews on all the Dave Clarke models, the only reviews I can find are either on the David Clarke website or on pilot supply websites but none of these seem to be independent or detailed enough to make my decision. I am not really interested in the detailed specifications, I am after reviews from pilots who have used them (comfort, features, weight etc..) ideally comparing  the pro’s and con’s between the different models. Thanks

Wore a pair to Vermont and back from Austin, Texas once; "David Clamps" is apropo. OTOH a solid, well engineered product suitable for military use. Blue skies H. CP AS&MEL IA ex N2196B, N739CD, N502TB

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Bose is definitely the way to go if you have the money and want active noise cancellation. A recent review that I read (cant recall where, sorry) gave the Bose a low mark for noise reduction and suggested Sennheisser as the best performing.

I’m a bit of an audiophile and I can tell you that nothing beats Sennheiser’s headphones. Bose’s don’t even come close. Never tried their aviation headsets but if they are anything like as good as their hi-fi stuff they would be well worth getting. K

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There is some question of the value of ENR (Electronic Noise Reduction) in avoiding future hearing loss.  Our company investigated supplying ENR headsets in a high noise area, but decided not to, since there was no demonstrated value.  In short, ENR only works on lower frequencies, and those frequencies typically don’t affect hearing as much as higher frequencies. << … and smoking hasn’t been proven to cause cancer. If you put them on, and it seems quieter (vs a  non ENR set) then it’s probable that there is less noise entering the ear.  This probably leads to less damage (if we accept the premise that noise at that level causes damage). I find ENR works on the higher frequencies too.  I put on my DCs passively and can still talk to people around me.  I flip on the ENR and it’s like I’ve gone deaf. My only issue with (DC) ENR is that I get a low frequency warble, probably due to a poor seal around the earpiece of my glasses. Jose — (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

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Cockpit, I’ve read of people who’ve sent them back a dozen times or more

Well, I’d wager you’ve read about exactly ONE person who’s done that. And he’s gotten one for free now. You also find one person here who hates his (ex-)Cirrus. This is Usenet… — Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

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I am a student pilot hoping to take my checkride within the next month (PPL/A). I am after a David Clarke Headset but am not sure which one to buy. Does anyone know of a good website that has independent reviews on all the Dave Clarke models, the only reviews I can find are either on the David Clarke website or on pilot supply websites but none of these seem to be independent or detailed enough to make my decision. I am not really interested in the detailed specifications, I am after reviews from pilots who have used them (comfort, features, weight etc..) ideally comparing  the pro’s and con’s between the different models.

David Clark’s aren’t the most comfortable, but they are probably the most durable and are backed by a company with a legendary reputation for customer service.  I have a relatively old model, the H10-20, and prefer it to the newer H10-13.4 (I think that’s it) model. Bose is definitely the way to go if you have the money and want active noise cancellation.  My Cherokee just isn’t loud enough to warrant any type of ANR… I’ve tried many of them, and the extra quiet wasn’t worth the price paid to get it.  However, airplanes with larger engines or less cabin insulation would probably cause me to re-evaluate. I’ve tried the LightSpeed sets and they are an excellent value for active noise cancellation.  They are comfortable and work well, and although the noise cancellation and audio quality isn’t quite as good as the Bose, they’re also about $700 less expensive.  However, they are pretty much an all-plastic headset and — the deal-killer for me — they are just too darn big for my airplane.  It was easy enough to lower the seat and work around scraping the top of the cabin, but my lateral space is at a premium as well, and the large cups with the thick foam made the headset just too bulky for my airplane. JKG

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My current headset is a 10-56HX.  ANR with the deeper "Helicopter" ear cups.  My normal work day has me wearing them for 8-12 hours…minimal complaint about comfort….wearing anything for that long will be noticable…even nice silk underwear. <G

Consider your passengers too.  Mine seem to be just fine when I wear a pair of DC’s on my head, but they look worried when I wear a pair of nice silk underwear on my head.

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Paul: I bought a pair of DC’s 30 years ago…still have them, they work great. 20 years ago, a young friend of mine barfed into the mike. I sent it back, years after the warranty had expired, and asked for a quote to refurbish.  They sent it back quickly, completely refurbished, new cords, etc, no charge. The company is that good. With regard to ANC, don’t even think about not getting it. I know that it seems like an expensive option now when you are starting out but if you continue to fly, you will find that the upfront cost is nothing compared to the cost of hearing aids that you will eventually need. Pete Anchorage — Peter D. Brown http://home.gci.net/~pdb/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akmtnsoaring/

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Jonathan, they are pretty much an all-plastic headset

No, they are not. The metal is covered by plastic, that’s all. — Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

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With regard to ANC, don’t even think about not getting it. I know that it seems like an expensive option now when you are starting out but if you continue to fly, you will find that the upfront cost is nothing compared to the cost of hearing aids that you will eventually need.

There is some question of the value of ENR (Electronic Noise Reduction) in avoiding future hearing loss.  Our company investigated supplying ENR headsets in a high noise area, but decided not to, since there was no demonstrated value.  In short, ENR only works on lower frequencies, and those frequencies typically don’t affect hearing as much as higher frequencies. There were a couple of areas where there might have been some benefit, but they were unquantifyable, so the company couldn’t put a dollar value on the systems.  The use of the systems might have led in a possible reduction in fatigue, resulting in improved alertness, and there might have been improved clarity in conversations, reducing communication error.

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My advise would be, above all else, get an ANR / ENC model. Makes comms roughly twice as clear, and is far less tiring on long flights. Personally, I’ve had a bad run with DC ENC models, but I guess that’s what warranties are for, and you certainly can’t fault their customer service.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am a student pilot hoping to take my checkride within the next month (PPL/A). I am after a David Clarke Headset but am not sure which one to buy. Does anyone know of a good website that has independent reviews on all the Dave Clarke models, the only reviews I can find are either on the David Clarke website or on pilot supply websites but none of these seem to be independent or detailed enough to make my decision. I am not really interested in the detailed specifications, I am after reviews from pilots who have used them (comfort, features, weight etc..) ideally comparing  the pro’s and con’s between the different models. Thanks

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I am not really interested in the detailed specifications, I am after reviews from pilots who have used them (comfort, features, weight etc..) ideally comparing  the pro’s and con’s between the different models.

I’ve been using DC headsets since ‘73…in fact I still have the first one I bought in ‘73. My current headset is a 10-56HX.  ANR with the deeper "Helicopter" ear cups.  My normal work day has me wearing them for 8-12 hours…minimal complaint about comfort….wearing anything for that long will be noticable…even nice silk underwear. <G The noise attenuation is good.  The headsets are rugged and the one time I’ve needed work done from the factory (the original ANR had some squeal) it was done quickly at no charge. I recommend them and wouldn’t think of buying any other headset.  (I have used Bose, Flightcom and Sigtronic headsets) — Dale L. Falk There is nothing – absolutely nothing – half so much worth doing as simply messing around with airplanes. http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

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I am not really interested in the detailed specifications, I am after reviews from pilots who have used them (comfort, features, weight etc..) ideally comparing  the pro’s and con’s between the different models.

Never a problem with mine. I plug them in – they work. They are comfortable and I like them. They are reliable. I don’t look beyond that — Tony Roberts PP-ASEL VFR OTT Night Almost Instrument Cessna 172H C-GICE

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Paul, I am after a David Clarke Headset

Well, my primary question would be: Why DC? There are many other brands which probably (IMHO definitely) offer a much better value. With DC, you pay a premium just for the brand name. You should consider two things, IMHO: 1. Comfort is a very personal thing – you definitely need to try before you buy, either at the local pilot shop or through a money-back guarantee. 2. Do not buy something without ANR (active Noise Reduction). Passive-only headsets are a thing of the past. I happen to like the Lightspeed headsets very much. They offer excellent comfort and very good ANR at relatively low prices. If you want independent reviews (on pretty much anything), Aviation Consumer is the place to go. The magazine’s website offers all back issues electronically at www.aviationconsumer.com. They have reviewed headsets repeatedly. — Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

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I happen to like the Lightspeed headsets very much. They offer excellent comfort and very good ANR at relatively low prices.

And you just can’t beat their customer service – I’ve read of people who’ve sent them back a dozen times or more, and everytime they fix them up again and send em back with a smile

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I am after a David Clarke Headset but am not sure which one to buy. [...] I am not really interested in the detailed specifications, I am after reviews from pilots who have used them (comfort, features, weight etc..) ideally comparing  the pro’s and con’s between the different models.

I can’t compare the various models, but I can tell you that I’ve had my 13.4’s for 10 years and almost 900 hours.  Between flights they get stuffed into my flight bag with no special treatment.  I find them comfortable and they still look almost brand new.

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Hi I am a student pilot hoping to take my checkride within the next month (PPL/A). I am after a David Clarke Headset but am not sure which one to buy. Does anyone know of a good website that has independent reviews on all the Dave Clarke models, the only reviews I can find are either on the David Clarke website or on pilot supply websites but none of these seem to be independent or detailed enough to make my decision. I am not really interested in the detailed specifications, I am after reviews from pilots who have used them (comfort, features, weight etc..) ideally comparing  the pro’s and con’s between the different models. Thanks

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Possible MS symptoms or just high blood pressure? looking for answers.

Question:

Hello, I have been having nearly daily headaches for the past year.  They are not bad enough that asprin wont take care of them.  But about 6 months ago I started getting numb in my left hand.  The headaches are always in the right front BTW.  Anyway it slowly spread to my leg and my face. This prompted me to see a doctor and they did a CT and followed up with a MRI and both came up totally clean.  The doctors seem to think its no big deal as I am only 32. Well it stayed pretty much at the same level for a few months but recently it has been getting a bit worse and now it feels like my left ear is plugged up a bit.  I went back to the doc and she did a hearing test that came up with mild hearing loss in the left ear.  Also I have noticed my left eye is bloodshot more often then the other one.  When I do any strenuous work I am now always tired in the left side before the right. She also checked my blood pressure this time and said it was high.  She looked at all the records from before and said every time they took my blood pressure it was high.  I dont have the numbers but the low one was 92 i think. Anyway she has put me on hydrochlorothiazide to lower the pressure but I am really worried about the hearing loss.. can this all be caused by high blood pressure?  She is also doing another blood test and UA right now I am waiting for the results.

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sinuses,, — Laura GAYLAN FOR PRESIDENT I am a proud member of the bloodletting aspartame silicone implants gluten dairy mercury amalgam lyme antibiotic incest multiple sclerosis fiboromylagia vaccination reunion committee and survivors group. <troll trap> "cosplay photog" <n…@obsessedwithanime.com> wrote in message

news:65a248b7.0404030057.23c4e620@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, > I have been having nearly daily headaches for the past year.  They are > not bad enough that asprin wont take care of them.  But about 6 months > ago I started getting numb in my left hand.  The headaches are always > in the right front BTW.  Anyway it slowly spread to my leg and my > face. > This prompted me to see a doctor and they did a CT and followed up > with a MRI and both came up totally clean.  The doctors seem to think > its no big deal as I am only 32. > Well it stayed pretty much at the same level for a few months but > recently it has been getting a bit worse and now it feels like my left > ear is plugged up a bit.  I went back to the doc and she did a hearing > test that came up with mild hearing loss in the left ear.  Also I have > noticed my left eye is bloodshot more often then the other one.  When > I do any strenuous work I am now always tired in the left side before > the right. She also checked my blood pressure this time and said it > was high.  She looked at all the records from before and said every > time they took my blood pressure it was high.  I dont have the numbers > but the low one was 92 i think. > Anyway she has put me on hydrochlorothiazide to lower the pressure but > I am really worried about the hearing loss.. can this all be caused by > high blood pressure?  She is also doing another blood test and UA > right now I am waiting for the results.

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Once upon a time cosplay photogin 65a248b7.0404030057.23c4e…@posting.google.com> told every last one of us; – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, > I have been having nearly daily headaches for the past year.  They are > not bad enough that asprin wont take care of them.  But about 6 months > ago I started getting numb in my left hand.  The headaches are always > in the right front BTW.  Anyway it slowly spread to my leg and my > face. > This prompted me to see a doctor and they did a CT and followed up > with a MRI and both came up totally clean.  The doctors seem to think > its no big deal as I am only 32. > Well it stayed pretty much at the same level for a few months but > recently it has been getting a bit worse and now it feels like my left > ear is plugged up a bit.  I went back to the doc and she did a hearing > test that came up with mild hearing loss in the left ear.  Also I have > noticed my left eye is bloodshot more often then the other one.  When > I do any strenuous work I am now always tired in the left side before > the right. She also checked my blood pressure this time and said it > was high.  She looked at all the records from before and said every > time they took my blood pressure it was high.  I dont have the numbers > but the low one was 92 i think. > Anyway she has put me on hydrochlorothiazide to lower the pressure but > I am really worried about the hearing loss.. can this all be caused by > high blood pressure?  She is also doing another blood test and UA > right now I am waiting for the results.

are you a photographer?  Use a slr?  Left eye does what?  Crink-y neck? Clenchy left arm?   A good Chiropracter might help.  

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i have hearing loss due to my profession. I studied music in university and played the flute. I plaed in orchestras as well. The hearing in my right ear has diminished slightly. Could be when you were younger you listened to music too loud or you have a hearing loss due to age and genetics. Jen "AuntieLo" <lodee…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:BC942A21.8AF0%lodeedoe@yahoo.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Once upon a time cosplay photogin > 65a248b7.0404030057.23c4e…@posting.google.com> told every last one of us; > > Hello, > > I have been having nearly daily headaches for the past year.  They are > > not bad enough that asprin wont take care of them.  But about 6 months > > ago I started getting numb in my left hand.  The headaches are always > > in the right front BTW.  Anyway it slowly spread to my leg and my > > face. > > This prompted me to see a doctor and they did a CT and followed up > > with a MRI and both came up totally clean.  The doctors seem to think > > its no big deal as I am only 32. > > Well it stayed pretty much at the same level for a few months but > > recently it has been getting a bit worse and now it feels like my left > > ear is plugged up a bit.  I went back to the doc and she did a hearing > > test that came up with mild hearing loss in the left ear.  Also I have > > noticed my left eye is bloodshot more often then the other one.  When > > I do any strenuous work I am now always tired in the left side before > > the right. She also checked my blood pressure this time and said it > > was high.  She looked at all the records from before and said every > > time they took my blood pressure it was high.  I dont have the numbers > > but the low one was 92 i think. > > Anyway she has put me on hydrochlorothiazide to lower the pressure but > > I am really worried about the hearing loss.. can this all be caused by > > high blood pressure?  She is also doing another blood test and UA > > right now I am waiting for the results. > are you a photographer?  Use a slr?  Left eye does what?  Crink-y neck? > Clenchy left arm? > A good Chiropracter might help.

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>Anyway she has put me on hydrochlorothiazide to lower the pressure but >I am really worried about the hearing loss.. can this all be caused by >high blood pressure?  

I’m not a doctor; I know of two people with high blood pressure, they never reported anything like you stated. However, people are different and sometimes have a little bit of different symptoms for the same thing… I’m wondering if this could be an infection of some sorts? http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/08/05/hosp_infections http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Primetime/Living/schaap031023-1.html http://www.msnbc.com/news/992470.asp?0si=-&cp1=1 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4078585/

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High BP can cause all kinds of complaints. your head can feel foggy or sort of like you can hear your heart beating in your head.  then the more you worry about it the worse it gets.  it can give you really bad headaches with a throbbing with the rhythm of your heartbeat. Joyce

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> but the low one was 92 i think. > Anyway she has put me on hydrochlorothiazide to lower the pressure but > I am really worried about the hearing loss.. can this all be caused by > high blood pressure?  She is also doing another blood test and UA > right now I am waiting for the results.

Are you sure this doesnt just rise when you enter the docs office?  Anything over 90 is considered life threatening.  Was it also this high at home when you take it yourself?  Yes you can have HBP at 32.  If it is not treated you will end up with conjestive heart failure at best or have a stroke or die at worst.  I am happy that hydrochlorothiazide works for you.  It is a diuretic that also affects potassium levels in your body.  Were you told to be careful about potassium rich foods with this particular medicine?  were you told to watch your salt intake?  Then be careful useing salt substitutes. Some of them will have extra potassium. The hearing loss could be HBP or any number of other things.  You really should go to webmd or about.com or some such site if you want to be overwhelmed by all the possibilities.  Your doctor already is aware of the many causes and you should trust her judgment.  You need to determine if the loss is permanent or temporary.  If it is permanent then accept it and do your best.  Deafness did not stop Beethoven. Celeste

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>Anything >over 90 is considered life threatening

120/91 is life threatening? Silly >you >will end up with conjestive heart failure at best or have a stroke or die at >worst.  

Catastrophic thinking. Yes get it treated but dont scare this young lady – she is addressing the issue >Were you told to be >careful about potassium rich foods with this particular medicine?

HCT is not a potassium spaing diuretic. The alarm about potassium (K) is not warranted. Lesson – dont believe everything your read on the net without consulting a health care professional (including my words). Chuck

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From a Physicians desk Reference web site… SNIP a.. a.. Side effects may include: Abdominal cramping, diarrhea, dizziness upon standing up, headache, loss of appetite, low blood pressure, low potassium (leading to symptoms such as dry mouth, excessive thirst, weak or irregular heartbeat, muscle pain or cramps), stomach irritation, stomach upset, weakness SNIP special warnings about this medication Diuretics can cause your body to lose too much potassium. Signs of an excessively low potassium level include muscle weakness and rapid or irregular heartbeat. To boost your potassium level, your doctor may recommend eating potassium-rich foods or taking a potassium supplement. SNIP OK – so you are right it is not potassium sparing.  But she still needs to track her minerals and salt intakes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> HCT is not a potassium spaing diuretic. The alarm about potassium (K) is not > warranted. Lesson – dont believe everything your read on the net without > consulting a health care professional (including my words). > Chuck

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>OK – so you are right it is not potassium sparing.  But she still needs to >track her minerals and salt intakes.

Sodium reduction can only benefit her. Increased potassium, magnesium, and calcium have actually shown beneficial as an adjunct to HTN treatment, along with exercise, medication and reduced fat diet (in most cases) Chuck

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 My sister also had MS like symtoms but it turned out to be a brain infection                                    John

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hearing loss?

Question:

Shutterbug wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone know anything about hearing loss as a symptom of MS? > Thanks.

I have lost some hearing in my left ear.  Had a hearing test, and it seems that the lower frequencies are most affected (50% loss) while the higher frequencies are close to normal.  I first noticed it listening to   headphones – the bass in the left ear was not as audible as the right.   Doc says it is probably MS. It doesn’t bother me unless I listen to music with headphones or am in a crowded room with lots of background noise – I have a hard time carrying on a conversation. Regards – Chris

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Shutterbug <f8shutter…@sympatico.ca> wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone know anything about hearing loss as a symptom of MS? > Thanks.

I know that one of my symptoms in college was hearing loss… It was like someone stuffed cotton balls in my ears for a week. It went away on its own, no steroids required… But this was before my actual diagnosis, so I wasn’t aware that it was MS at the time it occurred. Cyd

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I was diagnosed with MS in 1983. I am relapsing remitting and had a sudden right ear hearing loss in May 1991. I was suddenly profoundly deaf in that ear. I immediately called my neuro. He had me see the local university head of the Ears Nose and Throat  and after the Audiology  department head the following day. They did indeed confirm I was now profoundly deaf in that ear.  All the tests showed I was deaf due to MS.. My neuro said that it was a rare symptom, and that in being an MS specialist for over 35 years, I was only the 4th patient he had seen with a hearing loss and all the other 3 recovered hearing. I am however the exception, and now am still deaf in that ear. I have found there are ways to cope with the loss by positioning myself so i can hear better and trying to keep my deaf ear to an outside wall/ Crowd noises are the worst. It is hard to distinguish forground noise from background noise in crowds. I make do however.  Good luck.      Joanne

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Hi, Does anyone know anything about hearing loss as a symptom of MS? Thanks. — Shutterbug "f/8 and be there"

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On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:45:28 -0500, Shutterbug <f8shutter…@sympatico.ca> wrote in alt.support.mult-sclerosis: >Does anyone know anything about hearing loss as a symptom of MS?

I heard of one person whose exacerbation took the form of hearing loss. According to Dr. Murray who was head of the MS Clinic in Halifax at the time, it is rare but can happen. I believe the man regained his hearing once into relapse, but that is all I know about it. — Joan

Response:

On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:41:55 -0500, Joan  Carter <spam…@softhome.net> wrote: >On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:45:28 -0500, Shutterbug <f8shutter…@sympatico.ca> wrote >in alt.support.mult-sclerosis: >>Does anyone know anything about hearing loss as a symptom of MS? >I heard of one person whose exacerbation took the form of hearing loss. >According to Dr. Murray who was head of the MS Clinic in Halifax at the time, it >is rare but can happen. I believe the man regained his hearing once into >relapse, but that is all I know about it. >— >Joan

If the plaque cuts looss and "floats" to the area of the 8th cranial nerve, hearing is interferred with. Most likely, this is the cause of any MS related loss. Much like the optic nerve that is interfered with yet the responses of the eye itself seems normal. Anyone out there on ASMS know any of this to be possible? Donn

Response:

yes, i have a friend who lost almost all hearing in one ear as a result of ms. this was years ago, no improvement. "Shutterbug" <f8shutter…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:jRR1c.4489$i_2.88325@news20.bellglobal.com… Hi, Does anyone know anything about hearing loss as a symptom of MS? Thanks. — Shutterbug "f/8 and be there"

Response:

Hi ya I’ve had that occur a few times.. it wasn’t as bad later as it was the first time it hit..  It didn’t really stick around.. Matter of fact, the first time, I told my husband that I thought I was losing my hearing in one of my ears.. So he said, well, let’s test it.. In my good ear, he said, "I love you"..I heard it, and that was good..<g> Then in the ear I was worried about he said something like "mrmphdfed" we both literally rolled on the floor laughing, and hugging each other, at how I was supposed to hear that and understand it <g> Another time, much later, maybe 10-15years later, I went to my GP because I couldn’t hear, and I didn’t feel like making the trip to my neuro.. good thing I did.. my GP pulled a ball of wax out of my ear from all the hair conditioner I used on my long hair <grin> So.. don’t think just because you can’t hear, that it has to be from MS.. it did happen in my experience, but it also happens just like it does to "everyone" else from the simplest things <grin> Take care, Janis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Shutterbug wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone know anything about hearing loss as a symptom of MS? > Thanks.

Response:

Hearing Loss From The MS Information Sourcebook, produced by the National MS Society. Hearing loss is an uncommon symptom of MS. About 6% of people who have MS complain of impaired hearing.  In very rare cases, hearing loss has been reported as the first symptom of the disease. Deafness due to MS is exceedingly rare, and most acute episodes of hearing deficit caused by MS tend to improve.

Symphonies and hearing loss

Question:

"Steve" <h…@mb.inv> wrote in message

news:rjd400hh7mde1ph9tdhahst1png505oth1@4ax.com… > From the New York Times – > ============================= > The potentially harmful impact of sheer decibels, many times > amplified, on the ears of rock musicians and audiences has received > wide attention over recent decades. The problem in the more genteel > precincts of the symphony orchestra is less apparent to those outside > the profession. > But it has bubbled to the surface recently with press accounts of a > new regulation imposed by the European Union that reduces the > allowable sound exposure in the European orchestral workplace from the > present 90 decibels to 85.

<snip of fascinating article> This is a very interesting issue, and part of the much wider question of how far should legislation go in trying to keep people out of harms way.  In the US, for example, there are about 1000 premature deaths a week on the roads, and perhaps ten times that number resulting from tobacco use, yet no one is suggesting that each motor vehicle be preceded by a pedestrian bearing a red flag, or that tobacco be classified as an illegal drug.  On the other hand there are draconian measures in place to prevent the taking of other drugs, some less harmful than tobacco, but these serve mainly to fill our jails and enrich criminals.  I guess I’m for making sure people know what’s bad and letting them make their own choices provided these do not impinge upon the rights of others.

Response:

"Steve" <h…@mb.inv> wrote : > But it has bubbled to the surface recently with press accounts of a > new regulation imposed by the European Union that reduces the > allowable sound exposure in the European orchestral workplace from the > present 90 decibels to 85. The problem is, a symphony orchestra > playing full-out can easily reach 96 to 98 decibels, and certain brass > and percussion instruments have registered 130 to 140 at close range.

This is part of the normal work place regulations. The specification of 85 dB refers to 8 hours pr. day averages. If only exposed for 4 hours, the number increases to 88 dB and for two hours you can be exposed to 91 dB according to the same legislation. 97 dB is acceptable if you are exposed only