LAT: Wary of Taking Spanish or French? Raise Your Hands

Question:

American Sign Language (ASL) is the 3rd most used language in the United States!!!  It is used by a people of a rich culture "Deaf Culture".  As for college credit; wonderful!! I think that ASL is more useful than Spanish, French, German, etc.  Just because a person takes Spanish, French or some other spoken language doesn’t mean that person will become an interpreter for those languages, simply means they will gain insight to the languages and possibly some culture.  I think it is awesome that ASL is becoming so popular, the more the merrier!!!  

Response:

LMM123 wrote: > American Sign Language (ASL) is the 3rd most used language in the United > States!!!  It is used by a people of a rich culture "Deaf Culture".  As > for college credit; wonderful!! I think that ASL is more useful than > Spanish, French, German, etc.  Just because a person takes Spanish, French > or some other spoken language doesn’t mean that person will become an > interpreter for those languages, simply means they will gain insight to > the languages and possibly some culture.  I think it is awesome that ASL > is becoming so popular, the more the merrier!!!  

Ridiculous! ASL is a wonderful thing for the deaf to be able to communicate, but far more deaf and hard of hearing use speech reading than sign. There is this ethos of perceived superiority among signing adults that keeps mainstream deaf and severely HOH people like me from even considering it as an alternative. Learning French, German, Russian or Italian opens the door to the richness of the writings of their intellectuals, philosophers, novelists, artists, etc. Learning sign enables you to ask another deaf person where the bathroom is. Name one philosophical or work of literature written by someone who’s primary language is ASL. Helen Keller, a deaf intellectual, couldn’t sign, e.g. ardway

Response:

ardway wrote:

"There is this ethos of perceived superiority among signing adults that keeps mainstream deaf and severely HOH people like me from even considering it as an alternative." It’s not an alternative, it’s an auxilary, at least for people like ardway. Worth learning.  Signing can be a big help at home.  Signing helps for adding more people to your life.  It can be a big help if searching for a spouse. There are lots of signing adults making a respectable effort to be more like ardway.  Some of them get there, but in signing company it doesn’t show. Everybody wants to be both ways. The percieved superiority ardway speaks of does not exist.  What does exist is respect ( and envy ) for people who have been able to leave parent’s home, respect for deaf people who have been able to move themselves beyond a life of school, church, home of parents.   Well, it’s natural to try to maintian pride, and people like ardway get pushed away often. About culture, it’s difficult to know what is real and what is promoted. The promotion can get really stupid at times. Bill M

Response:

You may be interested in the following dialog with the BBC – who are excellent by the way. From the Beeb Dear Francis, Thank you for your email and apologies for the delay in replying. Subtitles are produced differently for live and for pre-recorded programmes. For live programmes, like the news, the BBC uses a team of subtitlers and stenographers. Any material which we can obtain in advance, such as written news links or news reports on VHS tape, is used to prepare subtitles. These are then sent out live as the programme goes out on air. Genuinely live programmes/reports, or those which are completed very close to transmission and for which no material is available beforehand, are mainly produced by a technique known as broadcast stenography or stenocaptioning. Stenography is a type of machine-written shorthand based on phonetics, as used in courtrooms. BBC stenocaptioners employ the same technique, with the difference that the shorthand outline is translated by computer and transmitted instantly onto air. We still subtitle most of our live output using stenographers, but as stenographers are in short supply, in the last few years we have begun to use speech recognition technology to expand the areas we can cover with live subtitling. We now use speech recognition to live subtitle most sporting events. A speech subtitler listens to the commentary and "respeaks" it into software which recognises the speech and translates it into subtitles. I hope this goes some way in explaining how subtitles are produced. Thank you for taking the time to write to us. Kind regards, Laura My email to the Beeb Hello Thank you for the subtitles. I am most intrigued by the subtitles, especially those that have to be produced speedily, such as for live broadcasts. How do you do it? I have cookie bite hearing, and I find the subtitles very helpful. I can hear most words though. There are some aspects that annoy a bit. Since most people can read faster than most can write, why do the sub titles often truncate the spoken text? And on occasions totally unreal words appear, like Clesh, Nch. Sometimes this is from words spoken by a new readers working from a script. How about delaying transmission for, say, 5 seconds (except for the pips) so that the transcribers have a chance to catch up? And using the scripts that newsreaders are using. Best Regards, Francis

Response:

sufaud wrote: > I wonder about children who have learned to sign but have not otherwise > learned language at a young age: for them learning to read is not just > learning to read, but learning English (or another language) from scratch.

I wonder how they  manage it at all. ASL and say, English, are already as different as one can imagine. Now ASL and _written_ English (or, for that matter, _written_ Chinese, or Russian, or…)  I don’t know how to put it… it must be like trying to learn hieroglyphic Hittite without any knowledge of Hittite.

Response:

A follow-up editorial in today’s LA Times: EDITORIAL A Language-Challenged U.S. Last year, leaders from business and government agencies met in Maryland to address the extraordinary demand for employees who speak foreign languages. You can bet they weren’t looking for French or German speakers. They need Mandarin, Korean and Arabic. So while educators seriously debate whether sign-language classes should count as a foreign language, as The Times reported last week, they bypass the real issue: Tant pis, American public schools are desperately behind the times when it comes to teaching languages. With few exceptions, they offer the same European triumvirate as 50 years ago

Another reason to hate THE FRENCH

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"disraeli" (junkt…@deru.com) writes: > "The Entire Population of Liechtenstein" <nevilemo…@yahoo.com> wrote in > message news:1102977526.774878.152750@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… >> > Highly Annoyed Rodent of Unusual Size & Typing Ability wrote: >> > Posting in binaries without subtitles, or english films dubbed into >> > french. >> > Who the hell do they think they are? >> Google offered me 183 hits for "Nobody likes the French", and another >> 168 hits substituting "No-one". By contrast, "Nobody likes the Spanish" >> offered 2 hits, in both of which it turned out to be the Spanish >> *Inquisition* that for some odd reason failed to arouse warm fuzzy >> feelings. >> It probably is true that nobody likes the French, but they like >> themselves (and each other) so much it’s traditionally never been much >> of a problem. >> "No-one likes the Balinese" gets 0 according to Google. I can feel a >> new web site coming on…. > Google offered up 195 hits for "nobody doesn’t like Sarah Lee".  I’m > disappointed. > Sarah L.

I don’t like Visigoths. There. Just had to get that off my chest:) —

Response:

I’m going to proudly celebrate the bicentennial celebration of Trafalgar, not because I hate the French, but because history (still) records that we beat Boney there. OTS "Highly Annoyed Rodent of Unusual Size & Typing Ability" <zombiefreaksfromhellbo…@bushwhacked.org> wrote in message

news:Xns95BE44FE5527Efkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6… > Posting in binaries without subtitles, or english films dubbed into french. > Who the hell do they think they are?

— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.809 / Virus Database: 551 – Release Date: 09/12/2004

Response:

"The Entire Population of Liechtenstein" <nevilemo…@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1102977526.774878.152750@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Highly Annoyed Rodent of Unusual Size & Typing Ability wrote: > > Posting in binaries without subtitles, or english films dubbed into > > french. > > Who the hell do they think they are? > Google offered me 183 hits for "Nobody likes the French", and another > 168 hits substituting "No-one". By contrast, "Nobody likes the Spanish" > offered 2 hits, in both of which it turned out to be the Spanish > *Inquisition* that for some odd reason failed to arouse warm fuzzy > feelings. > It probably is true that nobody likes the French, but they like > themselves (and each other) so much it’s traditionally never been much > of a problem. > "No-one likes the Balinese" gets 0 according to Google. I can feel a > new web site coming on….

Google offered up 195 hits for "nobody doesn’t like Sarah Lee".  I’m disappointed. Sarah L.

Response:

"Highly Annoyed Rodent of Unusual Size & Typing Ability" (zombiefreaksfromhellbo…@bushwhacked.org) writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "The Entire Population of Liechtenstein" <nevilemo…@yahoo.com> pulled the > needle out his vein long enough to rant thusly: > news:1102977526.774878.152750@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com: >> Highly Annoyed Rodent of Unusual Size & Typing Ability wrote: >>> Posting in binaries without subtitles, or english films dubbed into >> french. >>> Who the hell do they think they are? >> Google offered me 183 hits for "Nobody likes the French", and another >> 168 hits substituting "No-one". By contrast, "Nobody likes the Spanish" >> offered 2 hits, in both of which it turned out to be the Spanish >> *Inquisition* that for some odd reason failed to arouse warm fuzzy >> feelings. > Never been to France–for some reason I have "The Ring" dubbed into French. > There’s a character in some awful piece of crap (SLIDING DOORS) who repeats > that ’spanish inquisition’ line.  Makes those of us who did exactly that > for ***YEARS*** realize just how stupid we looked and no wonder we’re > alone.

Fo some reason, the "dubbing" into another language, or the sub text talk brought back to mind this interview I saw around "The Life of Pi" where the parents made the author, their son, grow up in both official langauges, being translators/editors themself, exact same type of job as mine, same client (givernment) and all. I had not read Pi yet, if I had it as a present last XMas, having misplaced my copy in this gigantic mess. But in the interview. they were showing the parents and the author, where they talked about how they talked about how they translated the book into French, since their son wrote it initially in English, finding it easier to avoid cliches in his secodn language,soemthign I coudl relate to. And they talked about wha trouble they had to coordinate the translations into Spanish and Japanese and so on, namely explaining what some specific detail of some boat piece could be that did not exist there in their language, if the entire "part" existed, etc, etc, and the fun it was to try and ecxplain this to a Japanese or whatever other language and culture person. Then they went on to give an example of problematic translation, where it was the part about why Pi was nicknamed Pi. They gave that example showing proud of their findings, where I coudl immediately know what they were as translators: the mathematical kind (no bad pu on pi I mean to do here:)), the equation kind, where the artistic creation was not quite there. They made that part be about the color color white or soemthign liek that for an explanation, then taking the whie to talk about milk, then the milk to talk about a cow’s "pis", to try and get to a word and anecdote to get it to a word that sounded the same as "pi" in French. They could all this time have stuck to the pissing in a pool, where pipi sounds exactly like "pi" said twice in French. In trying too hard, the completely missed the humour and eyewink sort of style in that nickname explanation,made it ascepticized and boring, and hardly fittign a dialogue/inner monolgue style. When I spent some time working on my novel, I;d aslo spend time thinking of way to tranlsate puns and render them in a way where nothign would be lost, and so far, I found that way, if I have not translated the thing yet. Somethign only an author could do with their own book, as it even can involve changing the forst name of a character to make it be as meant/as is in the original language. Woud I one day publish that book, could I even get to writing the rest of it, I then would wanna revise the translation and entirely change such dry awful efforts made to try and render it faithfully as per the words meaning while losing all the flavor of the writing puns and humour, eyewinks and so on. As for dubbed movies, since I was deaf a while as a kid and learned to rad on lips, even when a movie is dubbed in French, I see it in English anyway, since I will both hear the French and read the dialogues in English on the actors lips. I have seen ties when I would laugh out loud at a good pun in English while the movie was playing in French, where after a while poepe woudl putthe movie on pause and ask me what it said in English, for instance, and where they could then see they missed a lot listenign to a movie in a translated version. Of course, kiddo is a cinephile, being an actor, where he wants to always have the film in its orgiginal language wiht subtexts if transalted. Never coudl udnerstand that as to me, the text hides part of the screen and action where woudl I be a cinephile as much as him, that woudl annoy me to death. But true, I can read on lips and fiogure ou the real dialogue when French to English or English to French. One movie where I foudn they did a bad job is actually "La Vita ..bella". I coudl at times get a few Italian words, if I do not speak it at all, reading on lips by habit. BUT. The way they made the character in English be jumpy and a bunch of nerves to try and "translate" the Italian body langauge annoyed me greatly. There, they woudl have done better to have Quebecers, i.e. French speaking poeple that yet would speak English, translate the movie into Enlish: as a culture, the Quebec one is one that uses body language a lot, talks with its hands andd facial expressiosn etc, where they yet do not feel like they have to be nutcases or sufferign from worm infestation to render such a text/body language. I keep onderign each time I see this movie what the puns were in the orioginal lnaguge for some of the brain teasers they ahd in the movie, where that dr was so obssesed with these brain teasers and woudl ask the main caharcter about them and to find the answers for him all the time. Some I coudl see they tok in real lil things that do exist in French or English. But some toehrs I coudo see most likely ahd nothing at all to do with the original ones, nor used old brain teasers they coudl have put there, but tried to fit the lipsynch rather than try a real brain teaser there, whichw as greatly annoying. I still try and guess what the original ones were. You have this emotionally loaded scene in the movie where the nazzi dr asks the prisoner about this brain teaser he can not colve and that keeps him awake at night, while of course you expect the dr to be wantign to talk to the prisoner to try and find to help him escape the camps. The entire scene is about how lil brain teasers absorb the nazzi while poeple are killed by the thousands before his eyes, here a good friend, the now prisoner, is hoping to get out of the camp of course, and save his wife and son. The entire scene is ruined by how they tried to make anything for a brain teaser, both in French and English. It distracts you from the seriousness of the scene, and instead of making you feel the awful insensitivity, while one is risking his life and the other uses him for a stupid brain teaser contest, instead of oppsing the two completely incompatoble feelings,instead of making you feel that chism and clash, it makes you upset at whatever the german is sayign that makes complete nonsense in French and English, distracts you so much that you get upset and want that scene out of the picture. This I wish I could do. Work on special translations of the knd, where puns need kept and rendered without makign the text completely go astray and the reader/viewers too. Just annoying to the max that can be.  >  > —  > "My name is Bush.  I look after the place while Cheney is away." > –The shocking conclusion to ‘Manos 2004′.

–

Response:

"The Entire Population of Liechtenstein" <nevilemo…@yahoo.com> pulled the needle out his vein long enough to rant thusly: news:1102977526.774878.152750@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com: > Highly Annoyed Rodent of Unusual Size & Typing Ability wrote: >> Posting in binaries without subtitles, or english films dubbed into > french. >> Who the hell do they think they are? > Google offered me 183 hits for "Nobody likes the French", and another > 168 hits substituting "No-one". By contrast, "Nobody likes the Spanish" > offered 2 hits, in both of which it turned out to be the Spanish > *Inquisition* that for some odd reason failed to arouse warm fuzzy > feelings.

Never been to France–for some reason I have "The Ring" dubbed into French. There’s a character in some awful piece of crap (SLIDING DOORS) who repeats that ’spanish inquisition’ line.  Makes those of us who did exactly that for ***YEARS*** realize just how stupid we looked and no wonder we’re alone. — "My name is Bush.  I look after the place while Cheney is away." –The shocking conclusion to ‘Manos 2004′.

Response:

Highly Annoyed Rodent of Unusual Size & Typing Ability wrote: > Posting in binaries without subtitles, or english films dubbed into french. > Who the hell do they think they are?

Google offered me 183 hits for "Nobody likes the French", and another 168 hits substituting "No-one". By contrast, "Nobody likes the Spanish" offered 2 hits, in both of which it turned out to be the Spanish *Inquisition* that for some odd reason failed to arouse warm fuzzy feelings. It probably is true that nobody likes the French, but they like themselves (and each other) so much it’s traditionally never been much of a problem. "No-one likes the Balinese" gets 0 according to Google. I can feel a new web site coming on….

Response:

poet <p…@asarian-host.net> pulled the needle out his vein long enough to rant thusly: news:14e06a01688d0cf78.938ebd345c7ddad11@asarian-host.net: > X-No-Archive: yes > In article Xns95BE44FE5527Efkjdlkvjcxoiuarep…@68.6.19.6, Highly Annoyed > Rodent of Unusual Size & Typing Ability at > zombiefreaksfromhellbo…@bushwhacked.org wrote on 12/13/04 8:42: >> Who the hell do they think they are? > incredibly sexy, ooo la la…

ooo la la, indeed… — "My name is Bush.  I look after the place while Cheney is away." –The shocking conclusion to ‘Manos 2004′.

Response:

Posting in binaries without subtitles, or english films dubbed into french.   Who the hell do they think they are?

Response:

Not Ready For God

Question:

For these reasons I will no longer contribute to this newsgroup. I have other responsibilities that will take my time.

Don – I’ve been logging in to find your writing for many days. If you leave this ng then we shall lose a treasure beyond price. Please reconsider. If you have serious responsibilities which need your time, I hope and pray all will be well with you and yours. Not seen on this newsgroup are statements from people expressing a marvelous principle they have been taught by God. There is no discussion on what people are learning from God. Why? Because they are not learning from God.

I’m sure there are many who read and "reap" the richness of your writing – it may be that people are shy, or not as articulate as they would like. I can’t explain my feelings but something Emerson said sums up what you have done for me (and I’m sure many others). ……"we mark with light in the memory the few interviews we have had in the dreary years of routine and sin, with souls that made our souls wiser, that spoke what we thought: that told us what we knew; that gave us leave to be what we inly were" I wish you well beloved brother — Sabina

Response:

Arguing and complaining is the nature of mankind today. Offering belief and opinion as a substitute for knowledge of truth is the nature of mankind today. Simply said, mankind is not ready. Mankind remains barbaric in nature,

You’ve got to be kidding me.  No, we’re not barbaric.  We might seem that way, but the barbarians were human like us, which is why there seems to be a similarity. unable to comprehend his need for refined and increased intelligence.

You are generalizing.  Have you observed every human being alive today?  Of course not, so please stop your generalizations. Mankind is not ready for God and what God offers. Man prefers his comfort zone which he has learned and has been programmed to prefer.

Actually, this is exactly what mankind needs: Jesus. Consequently, he remains in his self created social orders, following his chosen principles that structure his social orders.

Well instead of sitting here being fatalistic, why don’t you go do something about it like witness? The nature of mankind has evolved through the many years under the direction and leadership of religionists and other social leaders.

There you go again with these imaginary religionists. Mankind keeps following the same principles and experiencing the same consequences. Mankind may be compared to the children of a family, unruly, undisciplined, dirty, vulgar, murderous, and lacking intelligence. Children are raised to be what they are by those parenting them.

So part of the blame is the parents, correct?  Yes, this is what I believe, but it’s funny how you tend to blame society itself and "religionists" rather than parents. Mankind has refused God as a parent. Instead, man chooses whatever religion fits his opinions and beliefs. He chooses whatever social leader he likes best by the smile or ability to lie and deceive.

Uh, we don’t directly pick leaders by their ability to deceive, or else it wouldn’t be much a deception if we knew about it, would it? But yes, true.  Romans 1. Man has made the bed he sleeps in. Unfortunately, there are good people among mankind who are the victims of the barbarians.

Please don’t go into victimization. They are the victims of the criminals including white collar criminals and politicians. They are the victims of the inane wars and murdering. They are children, females and males. They are people who want peace, love and good will. But they cannot rule. Brute barbaric force rules in a barbaric world. Physical force rather than intelligence. Greed rules rather than love and good will.

So society is barbaric, but it’s not?  Make up your mind, please. No, man is not ready for God. Man is content and complacent with his ways of life. What God offers has been available for many, many, years. God offers to teach mankind principles that structure a different way of life, a different social order. A life and order of peace, love, and good will. A life without war and murder. A life of equity among all mankind. Mankind cannot perceive how much better off he would be when learning and following the principles of God. He cannot see because he has never heard the truth concerning God and this way of life. All he has heard is false religious doctrines and teachings that do not and cannot portray God. How is it possible to choose something when there is no knowledge of that something?

Then "go and teach all nations".  You go on and on needlessly.  All you would’ve had to do, honestly, is quote Matthew 28:19-20 with Romans 1, but instead you go on and on with your stereotypes and generalizations. But does mankind want to know the truth concerning God? Apparently not. He has been told truth by many persons over the many years. He chooses to rally against the truth and the person giving the truth. A continuation of the way Christ was crucified for speaking the truth. Why? Because man is a barbarian,

No, barbarian is a relative term.  The Bible says that we are sinners, not barbarians.  Get it right, please. more aligned with the animal world than the civilized order of God and the family of God, a genus. For many years I have given truth on this newsgroup.

Sure, so now you violate the Bible and elevate yourself with prideful statements such as this?  Whatever bro, you’re just ranting.  Your attitude isn’t love, but instead it is pride and hatred. Only a few presented interest that soon faded and disappeared.

No, everyone placed you on their killfile.  There’s a difference.  Maybe you should realize that the reason people in general weren’t replying was because they were ignoring you.  Me, I forgot to make sure your killfile rule didn’t expire. I have fulfilled my responsibility by giving what I possessed to others.

No you haven’t, because instead of going and telling like Matthew 28 says, you’re sitting here trolling our newsgroup. It is not my responsibility for your choosing to accept or reject what I have given. Each person is responsible for what they choose.

Oh, and you forgot that it IS your responsibility to pray for them as well. Many times I have spoken of and revealed the way to know the truth God teaches. None have expressed a true desire to learn this way, to enter into and follow this way. Instead, I have received all of the rhetoric of the false teachings of religion in confrontation.

So typical of people like you to think that everyone who doesn’t agree with them is of the Devil, or some nonsense like that.  Maybe you should ditch your denomination and read the Bible and take it at face value.  And by read the Bible I mean a strict translation, or directly from the original languages if necessary. At this very moment, God is waiting for any person to come to receive the truth, the teachings of truth that recreate the mind, that transform the mind and the spirit of the mind, all that is inspired. The reality of becoming the creation of God in mind and spirit. But mankind cannot conceive this reality.

Well duh, you could’ve quoted a Bible verse or two about this very thing instead of going on and on.  Oh, and by the way, people know there is a God, see Romans 1. He cannot conceive the reality of God actually performing these works of promise. He cannot conceive the reality of a person possessing the mind and spirit of Christ, to possess all of the answers to man’s problems. No, mankind is not ready for God, nor the truth God teaches, nor the life God gives. He is not ready for a civilized social order structured by the higher principles and ways of life God teaches.

Read Revelation: we won’t get a holy society until Jesus reigns on earth. Sadly, by not being ready for God and by not becoming one with God in knowledge of truth, mankind will take his place apart and separated from the people of God when passing on from the physical body. He will never have this life God is able to give. He prefers to keep the mind and spirit mankind has created in him. He remains the type and kind of person mankind has created him to be. A barbarian. Uncivilized and animalistic in nature. Living by the law of the jungle instead of the law of God.

Dude, your description of society is funny because you’re comparing it to something that it isn’t anything like. Even then, look at yourself.  We are ALL sinners, just some of us are saved. However, maybe you should remember that you’re not perfect and, instead of condemning society, you should go try to change it.  God told us to go teach them, and to love our "enemies", not bash society. For these reasons I will no longer contribute to this newsgroup.

Thanks. I have other responsibilities that will take my time.

Like … GOING and TELLING?! My spiritual father is God. It is God who has inspired my mind with the truth I speak of. God has created my mind according to the order of God. This is simple truth portraying reality. But reality is not seen by mankind. Mankind chooses to remain blind, deaf, and dead to the reality of God. Not seen on this newsgroup are statements from people expressing a marvelous principle they have been taught by God. There is no discussion on what people are learning from God. Why? Because they are not learning from God.

No, quoting the Bible is learning from God.  It’s just that you’re the only person on this NG that likes to repeat it as if you’re trying to tell everyone that they are to obey you or think you’re Moses or something.  No, people should follow God, not you, per se. What is seen on the newsgroup is the continual arguing of religious doctrine; of mere belief and opinion. The reality of the blind leading the blind.

No, now you’re bashing everyone in this newsgroup.  So what?  You’re only going to find a new place to troll. Perhaps in generations to come, mankind will change. Perhaps he will become engaged when a small child is murdered by the inanity of war.

Like when Saddam gassed several Kurdish villages, killing women and children?  Or do we so soon forget those images we saw in Time magazine? Perhaps he will become enraged when little children waste away from hunger.

Caused by their fathers going to war and not building their families? Maybe you should go feed them. Perhaps he will become indignant with injustice that prevails in this world man has created for himself.

Uh, duh, it’s going to prevail because we are all sinners. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Perhaps. Perhaps it will be a long time before this happens. Perhaps hundreds of years. Until then mankind will continue along the way and ways he has chosen to live. Until his pain and sorrow is so great he will finally call out to God in sincerity, wanting relief. As the victims now do. Yes, God hears them. However, God does not change the physical. God changes

… read more »

Response:

Arguing and complaining is the nature of mankind today. Offering belief and opinion as a substitute for knowledge of truth is the nature of mankind today. Today? Where’ve you been, Donald? Pick up a newspaper from a hundred years ago and compare it to today’s paper…they say essentially the same thing. Nothing new under the Sun, so get modern, Donald!

but there is one difference betwen now and a hundred years ago. mankind now has the ability to destroy the world. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Simply said, mankind is not ready. Mankind remains barbaric in nature, unable to comprehend his need for refined and increased intelligence. Man, I guess so! He was certainly lacking in intelligence just prior to 9/11 wasn’t he? Mankind is not ready for God and what God offers. Man prefers his comfort zone which he has learned and has been programmed to prefer. Is there something inherently wrong with a little comfort? And, just who or what programmed Man to prefer it? Consequently, he remains in his self created social orders, following his chosen principles that structure his social orders. It’s called *culture* Donald, and it is present in slightly different forms world-wide. Basically follows the idea that whatever is beneficial to the group is deemed *good*, and whatever is detrimental to the group is termed *bad* or evil. It’s a human social construct, no god(s) needed. The nature of mankind has evolved through the many years under the direction and leadership of religionists and other social leaders. Mankind keeps following the same principles and experiencing the same consequences. Now there you have something right, Donald! Organised religion is definetly a form of social control. Mankind may be compared to the children of a family, unruly, undisciplined, dirty, vulgar, murderous, and lacking intelligence. Children are raised to be what they are by those parenting them. Yeah, we’re just awful creatures who happen to be a part of God…right, Donald?! Mankind has refused God as a parent. Instead, man chooses whatever religion fits his opinions and beliefs. He chooses whatever social leader he likes best by the smile or ability to lie and deceive. Man has made the bed he sleeps in. Unfortunately, there are good people among mankind who are the victims of the barbarians. They are the victims of the criminals including white collar criminals and politicians. They are the victims of the inane wars and murdering. They are children, females and males. They are people who want peace, love and good will. But they cannot rule. Brute barbaric force rules in a barbaric world. Physical force rather than intelligence. Greed rules rather than love and good will. No, man is not ready for God. Man is content and complacent with his ways of life. What God offers has been available for many, many, years. God offers to teach mankind principles that structure a different way of life, a different social order. A life and order of peace, love, and good will. A life without war and murder. A life of equity among all mankind. Mankind cannot perceive how much better off he would be when learning and following the principles of God. He cannot see because he has never heard the truth concerning God and this way of life. All he has heard is false religious doctrines and teachings that do not and cannot portray God. How is it possible to choose something when there is no knowledge of that something? But does mankind want to know the truth concerning God? Apparently not. He has been told truth by many persons over the many years. He chooses to rally against the truth and the person giving the truth. A continuation of the way Christ was crucified for speaking the truth. Why? Because man is a barbarian, more aligned with the animal world than the civilized order of God and the family of God, a genus. For many years I have given truth on this newsgroup. Only a few presented interest that soon faded and disappeared. I have fulfilled my responsibility by giving what I possessed to others. It is not my responsibility for your choosing to accept or reject what I have given. Each person is responsible for what they choose. Many times I have spoken of and revealed the way to know the truth God teaches. None have expressed a true desire to learn this way, to enter into and follow this way. Instead, I have received all of the rhetoric of the false teachings of religion in confrontation. And, you expected a different reaction, Donald? Sheesh!! At this very moment, God is waiting for any person to come to receive the truth, the teachings of truth that recreate the mind, that transform the mind and the spirit of the mind, all that is inspired. The reality of becoming the creation of God in mind and spirit. But mankind cannot conceive this reality. He cannot conceive the reality of God actually performing these works of promise. He cannot conceive the reality of a person possessing the mind and spirit of Christ, to possess all of the answers to man’s problems. No, mankind is not ready for God, nor the truth God teaches, nor the life God gives. He is not ready for a civilized social order structured by the higher principles and ways of life God teaches. Sadly, by not being ready for God and by not becoming one with God in knowledge of truth, mankind will take his place apart and separated from the people of God when passing on from the physical body. He will never have this life God is able to give. He prefers to keep the mind and spirit mankind has created in him. He remains the type and kind of person mankind has created him to be. A barbarian. Uncivilized and animalistic in nature. Living by the law of the jungle instead of the law of God. For these reasons I will no longer contribute to this newsgroup. I have other responsibilities that will take my time. Gosh, in a way, I’m gonna miss tearing apart your nonsensical posts. My spiritual father is God. It is God who has inspired my mind with the truth I speak of. God has created my mind according to the order of God. This is simple truth portraying reality. But reality is not seen by mankind. Mankind chooses to remain blind, deaf, and dead to the reality of God. Not seen on this newsgroup are statements from people expressing a marvelous principle they have been taught by God. There is no discussion on what people are learning from God. Why? Because they are not learning from God. What is seen on the newsgroup is the continual arguing of religious doctrine; of mere belief and opinion. The reality of the blind leading the blind. Perhaps in generations to come, mankind will change. Perhaps he will become engaged when a small child is murdered by the inanity of war. Perhaps he will become enraged when little children waste away from hunger. Perhaps he will become indignant with injustice that prevails in this world man has created for himself. Perhaps. Perhaps it will be a long time before this happens. Perhaps hundreds of years. Until then mankind will continue along the way and ways he has chosen to live. Until his pain and sorrow is so great he will finally call out to God in sincerity, wanting relief. As the victims now do. Yes, God hears them. However, God does not change the physical. God changes the spiritual. Until mankind allows spiritual change, he will continue to victimize the many. They, are the evidence that convicts mankind and his self chosen barbaric and ungodly ways of life. Many years ago, a man named Jesus of Nazareth spoke of a way of life man may live. He spoke of how man may possess this life. A few of those who heard him followed the way he taught and later testified of this life they possessed. This life was more valuable to them than their physical body. They chose to remain true to God and all they had been taught by God regardless of what fellow man did to them. Such is the power of sure knowledge. It is knowing and possessing this life that is the power to stand unmoved by the powers of evil, the powers of mankind. The physical powers which murder and destroy physical life. This life in the physical is merely a journey through time. It is a time to grow and develop spiritually, or as man says, mentally and intellectually. Man has grown and developed. He has done so in the shape and form others of mankind have shaped and formed him in mind and spirit, into what man is in this day and hour. A barbarian. A murderer. A liar. For these are the principles man has chosen to structure his life with. His love for money and what money buys in comfort and pleasure is far greater than any desire for God and what God offers. How sad it is to know his possessions will rot away exactly as his physical body will and he shall retain nothing of this physical world when the physical body dies. Furthermore, because he does not believe life continues on after physical death, he is totally unprepared for what awaits him. He will take his place with others of like kind, of like mind and spirit. His mental anguish shall continue and he shall not know peace of mind. He shall remain in turmoil, in what man names stress with all the depression, pain and sorrow he now knows. This, is what awaits him. He shall continue to know what he now knows. For the last time I shall appeal to you. Come out from among them and be separated

… read more »

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Arguing and complaining is the nature of mankind today. Offering belief and opinion as a substitute for knowledge of truth is the nature of mankind today. Simply said, mankind is not ready. Mankind remains barbaric in nature, unable to comprehend his need for refined and increased intelligence. Mankind is not ready for God and what God offers. Man prefers his comfort zone which he has learned and has been programmed to prefer. Consequently, he remains in his self created social orders, following his chosen principles that structure his social orders. The nature of mankind has evolved through the many years under the direction and leadership of religionists and other social leaders. Mankind keeps following the same principles and experiencing the same consequences. Mankind may be compared to the children of a family, unruly, undisciplined, dirty, vulgar, murderous, and lacking intelligence. Children are raised to be what they are by those parenting them. Mankind has refused God as a parent. Instead, man chooses whatever religion fits his opinions and beliefs. He chooses whatever social leader he likes best by the smile or ability to lie and deceive. Man has made the bed he sleeps in. Unfortunately, there are good people among mankind who are the victims of the barbarians. They are the victims of the criminals including white collar criminals and politicians. They are the victims of the inane wars and murdering. They are children, females and males. They are people who want peace, love and good will. But they cannot rule. Brute barbaric force rules in a barbaric world. Physical force rather than intelligence. Greed rules rather than love and good will. No, man is not ready for God. Man is content and complacent with his ways of life. What God offers has been available for many, many, years. God offers to teach mankind principles that structure a different way of life, a different social order. A life and order of peace, love, and good will. A life without war and murder. A life of equity among all mankind. Mankind cannot perceive how much better off he would be when learning and following the principles of God. He cannot see because he has never heard the truth concerning God and this way of life. All he has heard is false religious doctrines and teachings that do not and cannot portray God. How is it possible to choose something when there is no knowledge of that something? But does mankind want to know the truth concerning God? Apparently not. He has been told truth by many persons over the many years. He chooses to rally against the truth and the person giving the truth. A continuation of the way Christ was crucified for speaking the truth. Why? Because man is a barbarian, more aligned with the animal world than the civilized order of God and the family of God, a genus. For many years I have given truth on this newsgroup. Only a few presented interest that soon faded and disappeared. I have fulfilled my responsibility by giving what I possessed to others. It is not my responsibility for your choosing to accept or reject what I have given. Each person is responsible for what they choose. Many times I have spoken of and revealed the way to know the truth God teaches. None have expressed a true desire to learn this way, to enter into and follow this way. Instead, I have received all of the rhetoric of the false teachings of religion in confrontation. At this very moment, God is waiting for any person to come to receive the truth, the teachings of truth that recreate the mind, that transform the mind and the spirit of the mind, all that is inspired. The reality of becoming the creation of God in mind and spirit. But mankind cannot conceive this reality. He cannot conceive the reality of God actually performing these works of promise. He cannot conceive the reality of a person possessing the mind and spirit of Christ, to possess all of the answers to man’s problems. No, mankind is not ready for God, nor the truth God teaches, nor the life God gives. He is not ready for a civilized social order structured by the higher principles and ways of life God teaches. Sadly, by not being ready for God and by not becoming one with God in knowledge of truth, mankind will take his place apart and separated from the people of God when passing on from the physical body. He will never have this life God is able to give. He prefers to keep the mind and spirit mankind has created in him. He remains the type and kind of person mankind has created him to be. A barbarian. Uncivilized and animalistic in nature. Living by the law of the jungle instead of the law of God. For these reasons I will no longer contribute to this newsgroup. I have other responsibilities that will take my time.

The exact same reasons I left in 2002. I dug up my last exchange with Michael Christ, in order to shed some Light, and offer you the Love of the Brotherhood. —– Original Message —– Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 4:30 —– Original Message —– Sent: Tuesday, 22 January 2002 12:38

MC It seems we are destined to always disagree. MC I hope not though. m1 As a rule I generally do not exchange private email as it can cloud the public record. But in this one instance I will. The real pity is you only see people and not the point.

MC The person is the point. m1 I judge no man. Only his words. And sometimes it is not exactly what a man has said, but exactly what he hasn’t said, that swings the balance.

MC To me it is what he…does. The person and what he does is the point.

m1 So is a Servant above his Master? MC No.

m1 Or the Creation above the Creator? MC No.  And our fundamental issue…you know my stand …Jesus was not created; He was born with an eternal Spirit.  And, He is a Person, not a point.

m1 Do you think I have a problem with that? Jesus was born in Jesus of Nazareth. And that very same Jesus is born in all men who will earnestly seek after God. What God has done for one, He will do for all. For God is no respecter of persons. And Jesus IS the point. Now for the light at the end of the tunnel. I see Jesus in you. I also see Jesus in Donald. I see Jesus in many others as well. But I also see the religious mindset of men. And it is from this mindset that the many arguments flow. Now that this is known, it is time to leave it all behind. Christ for me is not accomplished in contention. You, can, and will do, as you wish. For all men have their own walk with God. But my walk with God through the newsgroups is now finished. God wills to no longer allow me the time. The reason, and the season, of me being there is over. And in leaving, I give you this. God is both correction and compassion. So do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And then let all men work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. May God richly bless you Michael, in your quest of Him. And may the Lord God, the Lord God Almighty, Ancient of Days and Father of Lights, richly bless you Donald, in your quest of Him. m1 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My spiritual father is God. It is God who has inspired my mind with the truth I speak of. God has created my mind according to the order of God. This is simple truth portraying reality. But reality is not seen by mankind. Mankind chooses to remain blind, deaf, and dead to the reality of God. Not seen on this newsgroup are statements from people expressing a marvelous principle they have been taught by God. There is no discussion on what people are learning from God. Why? Because they are not learning from God. What is seen on the newsgroup is the continual arguing of religious doctrine; of mere belief and opinion. The reality of the blind leading the blind. Perhaps in generations to come, mankind will change. Perhaps he will become engaged when a small child is murdered by the inanity of war. Perhaps he will become enraged when little children waste away from hunger. Perhaps he will become indignant with injustice that prevails in this world man has created for himself. Perhaps. Perhaps it will be a long time before this happens. Perhaps hundreds of years. Until then mankind will continue along the way and ways he has chosen to live. Until his pain and sorrow is so great he will finally call out to God in sincerity, wanting relief. As the victims now do. Yes, God hears them. However, God does not change the physical. God changes the spiritual. Until mankind allows spiritual change, he will continue to victimize the many. They, are the evidence that convicts mankind and his self chosen barbaric and ungodly ways of life. Many years ago, a man named Jesus of Nazareth spoke of a way of life man may live. He spoke of how man may possess this life. A few of those who heard him followed the way he taught and later testified of this life they possessed. This life was more valuable to them than their physical body. They chose to remain true to God and all they had been taught by God regardless of what fellow man did to them. Such is the power of sure knowledge. It is knowing and possessing this life that is the power to stand unmoved by the powers of evil, the powers of mankind. The physical powers which murder and destroy physical life. This life in the physical is merely a

… read more »

Response:

Arguing and complaining is the nature of mankind today. Offering belief and opinion as a substitute for knowledge of truth is the nature of mankind today.

Today? Where’ve you been, Donald? Pick up a newspaper from a hundred years ago and compare it to today’s paper…they say essentially the same thing. Nothing new under the Sun, so get modern, Donald! Simply said, mankind is not ready. Mankind remains barbaric in nature, unable to comprehend his need for refined and increased intelligence.

Man, I guess so! He was certainly lacking in intelligence just prior to 9/11 wasn’t he? Mankind is not ready for God and what God offers. Man prefers his comfort zone which he has learned and has been programmed to prefer.

Is there something inherently wrong with a little comfort? And, just who or what programmed Man to prefer it? Consequently, he remains in his self created social orders, following his chosen principles that structure his social orders.

It’s called *culture* Donald, and it is present in slightly different forms world-wide. Basically follows the idea that whatever is beneficial to the group is deemed *good*, and whatever is detrimental to the group is termed *bad* or evil. It’s a human social construct, no god(s) needed. The nature of mankind has evolved through the many years under the direction and leadership of religionists and other social leaders. Mankind keeps following the same principles and experiencing the same consequences.

Now there you have something right, Donald! Organised religion is definetly a form of social control. Mankind may be compared to the children of a family, unruly, undisciplined, dirty, vulgar, murderous, and lacking intelligence. Children are raised to be what they are by those parenting them.

Yeah, we’re just awful creatures who happen to be a part of God…right, Donald?! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mankind has refused God as a parent. Instead, man chooses whatever religion fits his opinions and beliefs. He chooses whatever social leader he likes best by the smile or ability to lie and deceive. Man has made the bed he sleeps in. Unfortunately, there are good people among mankind who are the victims of the barbarians. They are the victims of the criminals including white collar criminals and politicians. They are the victims of the inane wars and murdering. They are children, females and males. They are people who want peace, love and good will. But they cannot rule. Brute barbaric force rules in a barbaric world. Physical force rather than intelligence. Greed rules rather than love and good will. No, man is not ready for God. Man is content and complacent with his ways of life. What God offers has been available for many, many, years. God offers to teach mankind principles that structure a different way of life, a different social order. A life and order of peace, love, and good will. A life without war and murder. A life of equity among all mankind. Mankind cannot perceive how much better off he would be when learning and following the principles of God. He cannot see because he has never heard the truth concerning God and this way of life. All he has heard is false religious doctrines and teachings that do not and cannot portray God. How is it possible to choose something when there is no knowledge of that something? But does mankind want to know the truth concerning God? Apparently not. He has been told truth by many persons over the many years. He chooses to rally against the truth and the person giving the truth. A continuation of the way Christ was crucified for speaking the truth. Why? Because man is a barbarian, more aligned with the animal world than the civilized order of God and the family of God, a genus. For many years I have given truth on this newsgroup. Only a few presented interest that soon faded and disappeared. I have fulfilled my responsibility by giving what I possessed to others. It is not my responsibility for your choosing to accept or reject what I have given. Each person is responsible for what they choose. Many times I have spoken of and revealed the way to know the truth God teaches. None have expressed a true desire to learn this way, to enter into and follow this way. Instead, I have received all of the rhetoric of the false teachings of religion in confrontation.

And, you expected a different reaction, Donald? Sheesh!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At this very moment, God is waiting for any person to come to receive the truth, the teachings of truth that recreate the mind, that transform the mind and the spirit of the mind, all that is inspired. The reality of becoming the creation of God in mind and spirit. But mankind cannot conceive this reality. He cannot conceive the reality of God actually performing these works of promise. He cannot conceive the reality of a person possessing the mind and spirit of Christ, to possess all of the answers to man’s problems. No, mankind is not ready for God, nor the truth God teaches, nor the life God gives. He is not ready for a civilized social order structured by the higher principles and ways of life God teaches. Sadly, by not being ready for God and by not becoming one with God in knowledge of truth, mankind will take his place apart and separated from the people of God when passing on from the physical body. He will never have this life God is able to give. He prefers to keep the mind and spirit mankind has created in him. He remains the type and kind of person mankind has created him to be. A barbarian. Uncivilized and animalistic in nature. Living by the law of the jungle instead of the law of God. For these reasons I will no longer contribute to this newsgroup. I have other responsibilities that will take my time.

Gosh, in a way, I’m gonna miss tearing apart your nonsensical posts. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My spiritual father is God. It is God who has inspired my mind with the truth I speak of. God has created my mind according to the order of God. This is simple truth portraying reality. But reality is not seen by mankind. Mankind chooses to remain blind, deaf, and dead to the reality of God. Not seen on this newsgroup are statements from people expressing a marvelous principle they have been taught by God. There is no discussion on what people are learning from God. Why? Because they are not learning from God. What is seen on the newsgroup is the continual arguing of religious doctrine; of mere belief and opinion. The reality of the blind leading the blind. Perhaps in generations to come, mankind will change. Perhaps he will become engaged when a small child is murdered by the inanity of war. Perhaps he will become enraged when little children waste away from hunger. Perhaps he will become indignant with injustice that prevails in this world man has created for himself. Perhaps. Perhaps it will be a long time before this happens. Perhaps hundreds of years. Until then mankind will continue along the way and ways he has chosen to live. Until his pain and sorrow is so great he will finally call out to God in sincerity, wanting relief. As the victims now do. Yes, God hears them. However, God does not change the physical. God changes the spiritual. Until mankind allows spiritual change, he will continue to victimize the many. They, are the evidence that convicts mankind and his self chosen barbaric and ungodly ways of life. Many years ago, a man named Jesus of Nazareth spoke of a way of life man may live. He spoke of how man may possess this life. A few of those who heard him followed the way he taught and later testified of this life they possessed. This life was more valuable to them than their physical body. They chose to remain true to God and all they had been taught by God regardless of what fellow man did to them. Such is the power of sure knowledge. It is knowing and possessing this life that is the power to stand unmoved by the powers of evil, the powers of mankind. The physical powers which murder and destroy physical life. This life in the physical is merely a journey through time. It is a time to grow and develop spiritually, or as man says, mentally and intellectually. Man has grown and developed. He has done so in the shape and form others of mankind have shaped and formed him in mind and spirit, into what man is in this day and hour. A barbarian. A murderer. A liar. For these are the principles man has chosen to structure his life with. His love for money and what money buys in comfort and pleasure is far greater than any desire for God and what God offers. How sad it is to know his possessions will rot away exactly as his physical body will and he shall retain nothing of this physical world when the physical body dies. Furthermore, because he does not believe life continues on after physical death, he is totally unprepared for what awaits him. He will take his place with others of like kind, of like mind and spirit. His mental anguish shall continue and he shall not know peace of mind. He shall remain in turmoil, in what man names stress with all the depression, pain and sorrow he now knows. This, is what awaits him. He shall continue to know what he now knows. For the last time I shall appeal to you. Come out from among them and be separated unto God. Come to God to be transformed in mind and spirit. Come to God to be united with God in mind and spirit. If you desire the life God gives. DW Suiter Son of God

Yada, yada, yada. You’ll be back, Donald. I know you can’t live without an audience in front of your personal soap-box. Next time though, might I suggest that you  come up with a philosophy which makes more sense to the people reading these … read more »

Response:

Arguing and complaining is the nature of mankind today. Offering belief and opinion as a substitute for knowledge of truth is the nature of mankind today. Simply said, mankind is not ready. Mankind remains barbaric in nature, unable to comprehend his need for refined and increased intelligence. Mankind is not ready for God and what God offers. Man prefers his comfort zone which he has learned and has been programmed to prefer. Consequently, he remains in his self created social orders, following his chosen principles that structure his social orders. The nature of mankind has evolved through the many years under the direction and leadership of religionists and other social leaders. Mankind keeps following the same principles and experiencing the same consequences. Mankind may be compared to the children of a family, unruly, undisciplined, dirty, vulgar, murderous, and lacking intelligence. Children are raised to be what they are by those parenting them. Mankind has refused God as a parent. Instead, man chooses whatever religion fits his opinions and beliefs. He chooses whatever social leader he likes best by the smile or ability to lie and deceive. Man has made the bed he sleeps in. Unfortunately, there are good people among mankind who are the victims of the barbarians. They are the victims of the criminals including white collar criminals and politicians. They are the victims of the inane wars and murdering. They are children, females and males. They are people who want peace, love and good will. But they cannot rule. Brute barbaric force rules in a barbaric world. Physical force rather than intelligence. Greed rules rather than love and good will. No, man is not ready for God. Man is content and complacent with his ways of life. What God offers has been available for many, many, years. God offers to teach mankind principles that structure a different way of life, a different social order. A life and order of peace, love, and good will. A life without war and murder. A life of equity among all mankind. Mankind cannot perceive how much better off he would be when learning and following the principles of God. He cannot see because he has never heard the truth concerning God and this way of life. All he has heard is false religious doctrines and teachings that do not and cannot portray God. How is it possible to choose something when there is no knowledge of that something? But does mankind want to know the truth concerning God? Apparently not. He has been told truth by many persons over the many years. He chooses to rally against the truth and the person giving the truth. A continuation of the way Christ was crucified for speaking the truth. Why? Because man is a barbarian, more aligned with the animal world than the civilized order of God and the family of God, a genus. For many years I have given truth on this newsgroup. Only a few presented interest that soon faded and disappeared. I have fulfilled my responsibility by giving what I possessed to others. It is not my responsibility for your choosing to accept or reject what I have given. Each person is responsible for what they choose. Many times I have spoken of and revealed the way to know the truth God teaches. None have expressed a true desire to learn this way, to enter into and follow this way. Instead, I have received all of the rhetoric of the false teachings of religion in confrontation. At this very moment, God is waiting for any person to come to receive the truth, the teachings of truth that recreate the mind, that transform the mind and the spirit of the mind, all that is inspired. The reality of becoming the creation of God in mind and spirit. But mankind cannot conceive this reality. He cannot conceive the reality of God actually performing these works of promise. He cannot conceive the reality of a person possessing the mind and spirit of Christ, to possess all of the answers to man’s problems. No, mankind is not ready for God, nor the truth God teaches, nor the life God gives. He is not ready for a civilized social order structured by the higher principles and ways of life God teaches. Sadly, by not being ready for God and by not becoming one with God in knowledge of truth, mankind will take his place apart and separated from the people of God when passing on from the physical body. He will never have this life God is able to give. He prefers to keep the mind and spirit mankind has created in him. He remains the type and kind of person mankind has created him to be. A barbarian. Uncivilized and animalistic in nature. Living by the law of the jungle instead of the law of God. For these reasons I will no longer contribute to this newsgroup. I have other responsibilities that will take my time. My spiritual father is God. It is God who has inspired my mind with the truth I speak of. God has created my mind according to the order of God. This is simple truth portraying reality. But reality is not seen by mankind. Mankind chooses to remain blind, deaf, and dead to the reality of God. Not seen on this newsgroup are statements from people expressing a marvelous principle they have been taught by God. There is no discussion on what people are learning from God. Why? Because they are not learning from God. What is seen on the newsgroup is the continual arguing of religious doctrine; of mere belief and opinion. The reality of the blind leading the blind. Perhaps in generations to come, mankind will change. Perhaps he will become engaged when a small child is murdered by the inanity of war. Perhaps he will become enraged when little children waste away from hunger. Perhaps he will become indignant with injustice that prevails in this world man has created for himself. Perhaps. Perhaps it will be a long time before this happens. Perhaps hundreds of years. Until then mankind will continue along the way and ways he has chosen to live. Until his pain and sorrow is so great he will finally call out to God in sincerity, wanting relief. As the victims now do. Yes, God hears them. However, God does not change the physical. God changes the spiritual. Until mankind allows spiritual change, he will continue to victimize the many. They, are the evidence that convicts mankind and his self chosen barbaric and ungodly ways of life. Many years ago, a man named Jesus of Nazareth spoke of a way of life man may live. He spoke of how man may possess this life. A few of those who heard him followed the way he taught and later testified of this life they possessed. This life was more valuable to them than their physical body. They chose to remain true to God and all they had been taught by God regardless of what fellow man did to them. Such is the power of sure knowledge. It is knowing and possessing this life that is the power to stand unmoved by the powers of evil, the powers of mankind. The physical powers which murder and destroy physical life. This life in the physical is merely a journey through time. It is a time to grow and develop spiritually, or as man says, mentally and intellectually. Man has grown and developed. He has done so in the shape and form others of mankind have shaped and formed him in mind and spirit, into what man is in this day and hour. A barbarian. A murderer. A liar. For these are the principles man has chosen to structure his life with. His love for money and what money buys in comfort and pleasure is far greater than any desire for God and what God offers. How sad it is to know his possessions will rot away exactly as his physical body will and he shall retain nothing of this physical world when the physical body dies. Furthermore, because he does not believe life continues on after physical death, he is totally unprepared for what awaits him. He will take his place with others of like kind, of like mind and spirit. His mental anguish shall continue and he shall not know peace of mind. He shall remain in turmoil, in what man names stress with all the depression, pain and sorrow he now knows. This, is what awaits him. He shall continue to know what he now knows. For the last time I shall appeal to you. Come out from among them and be separated unto God. Come to God to be transformed in mind and spirit. Come to God to be united with God in mind and spirit. If you desire the life God gives. DW Suiter Son of God

Response:

May justice prevail…

Question:

Honour killing is not state sanctioned capital punishment. It is *murder* and is invariably carried out by a close family member of the unfortunate female victim. Helen Actually in Saudi Arabia it is state sanctioned. Are you SURE about that? While it might be tolerated I don’t think that it is officially sanctioned.

From an on-line encyclopedia [1] — Islamic law prescribes severe punishments for zina’ (extramarital sex) by both men and women; premarital sex may be punished by up to 100 lashes, while adultery is punishable by stoning. The term "honor killing" refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against the woman, and as such is forbidden by the sharia. Interpretations of these rules vary. Some Arabs regard it as their right under both tradition and sharia (by the process of al-urf), though this contradicts the views of the vast majority of Islamic scholars (fuqaha.) Ayatollah Ali Khamenei of Iran has condemned the practice as "un-Islamic", though the punishment under Iranian law remains lenient. In Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim country, honor killings are unknown, as also in Muslim parts of West Africa. According to Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the al-Azhar University Fatwa Committee (one of the oldest and most prestigious in the Muslim world):  "Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom. From the encyclopedia and a couple other sources, Jordan has a law that specifically permits honor killing in cold blood as well as in flagrante delicto. Several other Arab countries permit the latter but not the former (Syria, Morocco, West Bank). In most other Arab countries, honor killings are either not punished at all or punished with very light sentences (e.g., imprisonment for less than one year or payment of a fine). I haven’t yet found the specific "law" on the books of SA. However, the Wahhabi interpretation of Sunni Islam is the law on culture, religion and family life in SA, and that interpretation does permit honor killings. Men are expressed permitted to beat their wives [2], and this apparently has been upheld in modern Shar’ia courts [3,4]. There’s lot of interpretation, but as Arab society is very much based on honor, and the role of women in upholding family honor [5], it’s easy to see why this has remained a part of Arab society. Honor killings have been documented in SA [for a notation, see 6]. In contrast, honor killings in Muslim Indonesia is virtually unheard of [1]. It isn’t mentioned specifically in the Qur’an, but Islam has been used to justify it [6]. Beware the following mindset in Arab culture, Helen: "The best women are those who have the prettiest faces and the cheapest dowry." [7] From what I’ve read, that mindset is very, very common today. steve [1] http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Sharia [2] Qur’an, 4:34 [3] Guardian Weekly, 23/12/1990, Violence against Women Highlighted, p. 13 [4] http://debate.domini.org/newton/womeng.html [5] http://www.vibrani.com/honorkillings.htm [6] http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10016 [7] Ihya’ ‘Uloum ed-Din by Ghazali, Dar al-Kotob al-’Elmeyah, Beirut, vol. II, Kitab Adab al-Nikah, p. 45.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eight countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime – China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the USA and Yemen. China, Pakistan and Yemen have raised the minimum age to 18in law, and Iran is in the process of doing so. I guess the honor killings in the Muslim states don’t count. I guess you guess right. Honour killing is not state sanctioned capital punishment. It is *murder* and is invariably carried out by a close family member of the unfortunate female victim. Who is then never punished. "Never punished" is another of your generalisations.

Okay, I’ll bite. Why don’t you post a link about an Arab state that expressly forbids (by law) and routinely punishes ‘honor killings’? There are 22 Arab states. I can’t think of one, based on everything I’ve read over the last few years, that punishes honor killings with the sort of severe prison sentences that such a thing would earn in, say, Ireland. But I could certainly have missed one. Your own society is often ambivalent regarding ‘domestics’. The police don’t like to get involved except when they have no option – and then it is usually too late, when it has escalated to *murder*.

Sorta cuts both ways here — chronic abuse, etc., is seen as a mitigating defense for a woman accused of killing her husband. But that sort of thing isn’t an ‘honor’ killing, and you know it. You really are so selective, Steve. You can’t see past your nose. Look to your own and you will see that it’s all about *power*. *Killing people* is WRONG, no matter who is doing the killing. It is so uncivilised.

However, there are times when killing is necessary, and times when it’s absolutely wrong. I again refer you to your grandfather in the Easter Revolution; he seemed to understand the difference. Honor killings are wrong. Seems simple to me. And hardly selective. steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Man May Face Life In Prison For Decapitating Dog Is the man or the dog adopted? Both wouldn’t be such a long stretch. Bad choice of words, Rh.! HE might be facing a very long stretch if the case goes against him!

True enough. Rh. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Helen Rh. D.P.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eight countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime – China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the USA and Yemen. China, Pakistan and Yemen have raised the minimum age to 18in law, and Iran is in the process of doing so. I guess the honor killings in the Muslim states don’t count. I guess you guess right. Honour killing is not state sanctioned capital punishment. It is *murder* and is invariably carried out by a close family member of the unfortunate female victim. Who is then never punished. Who is in fact encouraged to perform the killing by the culture, religion and attitudes of the people. Nope, nope, not a "state-sanctioned" killing at all, nuttin’ to see, move along.

. Not unlike the "lynch laws" Rh. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – steve

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eight countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime – China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the USA and Yemen. China, Pakistan and Yemen have raised the minimum age to 18in law, and Iran is in the process of doing so. I guess the honor killings in the Muslim states don’t count. I guess you guess right. Honour killing is not state sanctioned capital punishment. It is *murder* and is invariably carried out by a close family member of the unfortunate female victim. Who is then never punished.

"Never punished" is another of your generalisations. Your own society is often ambivalent regarding ‘domestics’. The police don’t like to get involved except when they have no option – and then it is usually too late, when it has escalated to *murder*. See below: "Too many people continue to believe that domestic violence is a private matter between a couple, rather than a criminal offense that merits a strong and swift response. Even today, the victim of a domestic assault runs the risk of being asked, "What did you do to make your husband angry?" This questions implies the victim is to blame for this abuse. People in our criminal justice system — police, prosecutors, judges, and jurors — need to be educated about the role they can play in curbing acts of domestic violence. Even when cases are brought, domestic crimes are difficult to prosecute. All too often victims are so terrorized that they fear for their lives if they call the police. Silence is the batterer’s best friend. We have to end the silence and change our attitudes toward domestic crime." http://www.usda.gov/da/shmd/aware.htm#MYTHS Who is in fact encouraged to perform the killing by the culture, religion and attitudes of the people.

Turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to your own social problems doesn’t make them any less blameworthy than those carried out in other jurisdictions. Nope, nope, not a "state-sanctioned" killing at all, nuttin’ to see, move along.

You really are so selective, Steve. You can’t see past your nose. Look to your own and you will see that it’s all about *power*. *Killing people* is WRONG, no matter who is doing the killing. It is so uncivilised. Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – steve

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Man May Face Life In Prison For Decapitating Dog Is the man or the dog adopted? Both wouldn’t be such a long stretch.

Bad choice of words, Rh.! HE might be facing a very long stretch if the case goes against him! Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rh. D.P.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eight countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime – China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the USA and Yemen. China, Pakistan and Yemen have raised the minimum age to 18in law, and Iran is in the process of doing so. I guess the honor killings in the Muslim states don’t count. I guess you guess right. Honour killing is not state sanctioned capital punishment. It is *murder* and is invariably carried out by a close family member of the unfortunate female victim. Helen Actually in Saudi Arabia it is state sanctioned.

Are you SURE about that? While it might be tolerated I don’t think that it is officially sanctioned.  They also have public stonings of adulterers.

Aren’t executions often witnessed in the US? Do you still use the electric chair, or is poison now the only weapon of choice in the state-sponsored killing of your citizens? You have probably gathered that I oppose capital punishment, no matter where it is carried out. <s  But hey, they give us a good deal on oil so they can eat their grandmas for all we care.  Huh. In a related EMBROYO vein, check out this nifty Islamic loophole! from http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_adul2.htm : Under "an obscure tenet of Islamic law,…an embryo can ’sleep’ for years before swelling a woman’s belly." 9 Thus, it is believed that an interval of up to seven years can pass between conception and birth. This means that a woman who is pregnant and has been divorced for fewer than seven years can theoretically claim that the father of the fetus is her former husband.

Until comparatively recent times in Ireland (Adoption Act 1988) a child born to a married woman was deemed to be her husband’s offspring, whether or not she was still having sexual relations with him. As ‘marital children’ could not be placed for adoption, that meant the child was unadoptable. The 1988 Act changed all that. Also, adoption is illegal in Islam which is great for people who have a bug up their butts about adoption, but bad for Afghan orphans, who end up sold into slavery instead.

Kafalah (a form of foster care)is widely practiced, and accords with Islamic Law. Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Damsel

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Also, adoption is illegal in Islam which is great for people who have a bug up their butts about adoption, but bad for Afghan orphans, who end up sold into slavery instead. But gee, Damzy, they can get "married" when they’re six years old, so it must be okay. Though I think sexual relations with your new wife before she’s nine is sorta frowned upon.

Your sneering bigotry is showing once again. ‘Arranged marriages’ were/are the norm in many communities and cultures. You are mixing up betrothals and marriages. It’s not too long ago that marriage was permitted between youngsters as young as twelve or fourteen in some of your own states. For all I know it could still be the case. You might lay off your nightly reading of "The Arab Mind" – the Handbook of How to (Mis)treat Arabs. I know your military is very fond of it – but look where it has got *them*! Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – steve

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Hey Damz I did an interview with the Contra Costa Times yesterday.  Of course, who knows if what I said and what comes out in print will even be close.  Ah! the dangers of celebrityhood. At least I’m not engaged to Ricky Martin. Sorry to note that Madame Chang kai-chek died recently.  You know my bdad knew her (as well as her dentist George Wang with whom he still keeps in contact).  Does this make us secret cousins or something?

I had an idea that Madame Chiang Kai-Chek lived to be very old, so I looked it up. She died last September at the age of *106*! Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marley Man May Face Life In Prison For Decapitating Dog Is the man or the dog adopted? D.P.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Damz I did an interview with the Contra Costa Times yesterday.  Of course, who knows if what I said and what comes out in print will even be close. Ah! the dangers of celebrityhood. At least I’m not engaged to Ricky Martin. Sorry to note that Madame Chang kai-chek died recently.  You know my bdad knew her (as well as her dentist George Wang with whom he still keeps in contact).  Does this make us secret cousins or something? I had an idea that Madame Chiang Kai-Chek lived to be very old, so I looked it up. She died last September at the age of *106*! Helen

Yeah!  Isn’t that amazing.  Jack kept telling me she was alive, and I kept telling him she can’t be. Marley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marley Man May Face Life In Prison For Decapitating Dog Is the man or the dog adopted? D.P.

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Man May Face Life In Prison For Decapitating Dog Is the man or the dog adopted? D.P.

All pets are adopted.  The man probably couldn’t deal with the ACS (adopted canine syndrome) anymore. kj

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Damz I did an interview with the Contra Costa Times yesterday.  Of course, who knows if what I said and what comes out in print will even be close.  Ah! the dangers of celebrityhood. At least I’m not engaged to Ricky Martin. Sorry to note that Madame Chang kai-chek died recently.  You know my bdad knew her (as well as her dentist George Wang with whom he still keeps in contact).  Does this make us secret cousins or something? He knew Madame Chang? Dang. You’re a celebrity indeed!

Yeah, he had high tea with her occasionally in Nanjing after the war when he was on George Marshall’s staff.  He also sort of met Mao a couple times. Marley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – steve

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Hey Damz I did an interview with the Contra Costa Times yesterday.  Of course, who knows if what I said and what comes out in print will even be close.  Ah! the dangers of celebrityhood. At least I’m not engaged to Ricky Martin. Sorry to note that Madame Chang kai-chek died recently.  You know my bdad knew her (as well as her dentist George Wang with whom he still keeps in contact).  Does this make us secret cousins or something?

He knew Madame Chang? Dang. You’re a celebrity indeed! steve

Response:

Hey Damz I did an interview with the Contra Costa Times yesterday.  Of course, who knows if what I said and what comes out in print will even be close.  Ah! the dangers of celebrityhood. At least I’m not engaged to Ricky Martin. Sorry to note that Madame Chang kai-chek died recently.  You know my bdad knew her (as well as her dentist George Wang with whom he still keeps in contact).  Does this make us secret cousins or something? Marley

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Man May Face Life In Prison For Decapitating Dog Is the man or the dog adopted? D.P.

Response:

Also, adoption is illegal in Islam which is great for people who have a bug up their butts about adoption, but bad for Afghan orphans, who end up sold into slavery instead.

But gee, Damzy, they can get "married" when they’re six years old, so it must be okay. Though I think sexual relations with your new wife before she’s nine is sorta frowned upon. steve

Response:

Man May Face Life In Prison For Decapitating Dog Is the man or the dog adopted?

Both wouldn’t be such a long stretch. Rh. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – D.P.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eight countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime – China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the USA and Yemen. China, Pakistan and Yemen have raised the minimum age to 18in law, and Iran is in the process of doing so. I guess the honor killings in the Muslim states don’t count. I guess you guess right. Honour killing is not state sanctioned capital punishment. It is *murder* and is invariably carried out by a close family member of the unfortunate female victim.

Who is then never punished. Who is in fact encouraged to perform the killing by the culture, religion and attitudes of the people. Nope, nope, not a "state-sanctioned" killing at all, nuttin’ to see, move along. steve

Response:

Man May Face Life In Prison For Decapitating Dog Is the man or the dog adopted? D.P.

Beats me, Kiddo! So long since we’ve seen Our Damzy! TOO LONG! Happy to see your smiling face, dearest one. Re the dog killer, I find it fascinating to watch other posters as they read, then chime in with an astonishing round of personal feelings about whatever the subject. I’m always happy to anyone pick up the ball and run with it! Patty B…

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Man May Face Life In Prison For Decapitating Dog

Is the man or the dog adopted? D.P.

Response:

Eight countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime – China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the USA and Yemen. China, Pakistan and Yemen have raised the minimum age to 18in law, and Iran is in the process of doing so.

I guess the honor killings in the Muslim states don’t count. steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eight countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime – China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the USA and Yemen. China, Pakistan and Yemen have raised the minimum age to 18in law, and Iran is in the process of doing so. I guess the honor killings in the Muslim states don’t count. I guess you guess right. Honour killing is not state sanctioned capital punishment. It is *murder* and is invariably carried out by a close family member of the unfortunate female victim. Helen

Actually in Saudi Arabia it is state sanctioned.  They also have public stonings of adulterers.  But hey, they give us a good deal on oil so they can eat their grandmas for all we care.  Huh. In a related EMBROYO vein, check out this nifty Islamic loophole! from http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_adul2.htm : Under "an obscure tenet of Islamic law,…an embryo can ’sleep’ for years before swelling a woman’s belly." 9 Thus, it is believed that an interval of up to seven years can pass between conception and birth. This means that a woman who is pregnant and has been divorced for fewer than seven years can theoretically claim that the father of the fetus is her former husband. Also, adoption is illegal in Islam which is great for people who have a bug up their butts about adoption, but bad for Afghan orphans, who end up sold into slavery instead. Damsel

Response:

Eight countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime – China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the USA and Yemen. China, Pakistan and Yemen have raised the minimum age to 18in law, and Iran is in the process of doing so. I guess the honor killings in the Muslim states don’t count.

I guess you guess right. Honour killing is not state sanctioned capital punishment. It is *murder* and is invariably carried out by a close family member of the unfortunate female victim. Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Man May Face Life In Prison For Decapitating Dog Top: This is a horrible story, however if the dog was dead before it was decapitated, then the beheading per se should not add to the punishment. I certainly hope that justice will prevail, and that he will get whatever help he needs. Nobody in their right mind would do what he did, and he seemed to be remorseful. Mental illness is a terrible burden, not least for the sufferer. Schizophrenia in particular must be controlled, and requires medication for as long as the person lives. (To the best of my knowledge, that is.) Unfortunately, the treatment can be so effective that the person comes to believe that s/he is cured and doesn’t require it any more, leading to a fairly rapid breakdown and decline back into instability and irrationality. I am surprised that a judge *alone* (without a jury) could sentence someone to life for killing a dog. His last offences were committed nearly twenty years ago, and he might even have been mentally ill then. Is killing a dog so heinous a crime that a man might be put away for *life*, without any possibility of redemption? In a country that practices state-sanctioned murder against its own citizens, I find that most bizarre.

It makes no difference.  It falls under the "there strikes law."  Previous offenders, no matter how long ago the offense can be sentenced to life and the judge has no discretion n the issue. You can thank liberals for that one. Marley

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Man May Face Life In Prison For Decapitating Dog

Top: This is a horrible story, however if the dog was dead before it was decapitated, then the beheading per se should not add to the punishment. I certainly hope that justice will prevail, and that he will get whatever help he needs. Nobody in their right mind would do what he did, and he seemed to be remorseful. Mental illness is a terrible burden, not least for the sufferer. Schizophrenia in particular must be controlled, and requires medication for as long as the person lives. (To the best of my knowledge, that is.) Unfortunately, the treatment can be so effective that the person comes to believe that s/he is cured and doesn’t require it any more, leading to a fairly rapid breakdown and decline back into instability and irrationality. I am surprised that a judge *alone* (without a jury) could sentence someone to life for killing a dog. His last offences were committed nearly twenty years ago, and he might even have been mentally ill then. Is killing a dog so heinous a crime that a man might be put away for *life*, without any possibility of redemption? In a country that practices state-sanctioned murder against its own citizens, I find that most bizarre. "In 2003, 84 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, the USA and Viet Nam. In China, limited and incomplete records available to Amnesty International at the end of the year indicated that at least 726 people were executed, but the true figure was believed to be much higher: a senior Chinese legislator suggested in March 2004 that China executes "nearly 10,000" people each year. At least 108 executions were carried out in Iran. Sixty-five people were executed in the USA. At least 64 people were executed in Viet Nam. 5. Use of the Death Penalty Against Child Offenders International human rights treaties prohibit anyone under 18 years old at the time of the crime being sentenced to death. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the American Convention on Human Rights and the Convention on the Rights of the Child all have provisions to this effect. More than 110 countries whose laws still provide for the death penalty for at least some offences have laws specifically excluding the execution of child offenders or may be presumed to exclude such executions by being parties to one or another of the above treaties. A small number of countries, however, have continued to execute child offenders. Eight countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime – China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the USA and Yemen. China, Pakistan and Yemen have raised the minimum age to 18in law, and Iran is in the process of doing so. The country which has carried out the greatest number of known executions of child offenders is the USA (19 since 1990). Amnesty International recorded two executions of child offenders in 2003, one in China and one in the USA. Two executions have been recorded in Iran in 2004. http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – POSTED: 4:25 pm PDT June 3, 2004 UPDATED: 4:33 pm PDT June 3, 2004 LOS ANGELES — An ex-con who stabbed his German shepherd with a stake and cut off her head was convicted of a felony charge Thursday that could send him to prison for life unless it is determined he was insane when he did it. Orange County Superior Court Judge Kazuharu Makino — it is a bench trial without a jury — listened to more than two hours of testimony before deciding James Abernathy, 42, was guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt." Psychiatric testimony will begin Monday and the trial is expected to conclude Tuesday. Deputy District Attorney Heather Brown believes Abernathy was sane when the felony animal cruelty occurred. "I believe he’s malingering, faking it," the prosecutor said. Outside the courtroom, defense attorney William Morrissey said Abernathy has been diagnosed with schizophrenia, although he was not on medication at the time of the killing. If found sane, Abernathy faces a "three strikes" sentence of 25 years to life in prison because of convictions in May 1986 and August 1986 for assault with a deadly weapon. The animal cruelty charge usually carries a sentence of three years, without the three-strikes enhancement, prosecutors said. Traci Healy, a next-door neighbor, testified that Abernathy came to the door of her home about 8:30 a.m. on Jan. 27, 2002. "He was very upset," she said. "He was crying. He was shaking, kind of rocking back and forth. He seemed very distraught." She said Abernathy told her he had killed his dog. "He said he’d gotten in a fight with his girlfriend the night before and he was angry," Healy said. "He stated he needed some help. He was in trouble." Joan Marinaro, Healy’s mother, testified that she had answered the door to Abernathy that morning. She said he was "barefoot and bare-chested." "It appeared he had dry blood on his hands and feet and his hair was pretty askew," Marinaro said. "He said, ‘Joan, I need help.’" Marinaro testified that Abernathy had told her earlier that he had named his dog Marie, after his girlfriend. Under questioning by Brown, Mariano insisted she only remembered Abernathy telling her that he had a fight with his girlfriend and killed his dog. But Brown asked her to read the statement she gave police that morning. She then acknowledged that Abernathy told her "the dog made him mad. He was fighting with his girlfriend and that was the reason he killed the dog." She said Abernathy told her he would be "in real trouble" if she called the police. Mariano said she called police but that Abernathy, because of his condition, was initially transported to the St. Jude Hospital emergency room. "At the hospital, he said he heard voices," defense attorney Morrissey said. Copyright 2004 by NBC4.tv. All rights reserved. Reprinted for educational purposes only.

Response:

Man May Face Life In Prison For Decapitating Dog POSTED: 4:25 pm PDT June 3, 2004 UPDATED: 4:33 pm PDT June 3, 2004 LOS ANGELES — An ex-con who stabbed his German shepherd with a stake and cut off her head was convicted of a felony charge Thursday that could send him to prison for life unless it is determined he was insane when he did it. Orange County Superior Court Judge Kazuharu Makino — it is a bench trial without a jury — listened to more than two hours of testimony before deciding James Abernathy, 42, was guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt." Psychiatric testimony will begin Monday and the trial is expected to conclude Tuesday. Deputy District Attorney Heather Brown believes Abernathy was sane when the felony animal cruelty occurred. "I believe he’s malingering, faking it," the prosecutor said. Outside the courtroom, defense attorney William Morrissey said Abernathy has been diagnosed with schizophrenia, although he was not on medication at the time of the killing. If found sane, Abernathy faces a "three strikes" sentence of 25 years to life in prison because of convictions in May 1986 and August 1986 for assault with a deadly weapon. The animal cruelty charge usually carries a sentence of three years, without the three-strikes enhancement, prosecutors said. Traci Healy, a next-door neighbor, testified that Abernathy came to the door of her home about 8:30 a.m. on Jan. 27, 2002. "He was very upset," she said. "He was crying. He was shaking, kind of rocking back and forth. He seemed very distraught." She said Abernathy told her he had killed his dog. "He said he’d gotten in a fight with his girlfriend the night before and he was angry," Healy said. "He stated he needed some help. He was in trouble." Joan Marinaro, Healy’s mother, testified that she had answered the door to Abernathy that morning. She said he was "barefoot and bare-chested." "It appeared he had dry blood on his hands and feet and his hair was pretty askew," Marinaro said. "He said, ‘Joan, I need help.’" Marinaro testified that Abernathy had told her earlier that he had named his dog Marie, after his girlfriend. Under questioning by Brown, Mariano insisted she only remembered Abernathy telling her that he had a fight with his girlfriend and killed his dog. But Brown asked her to read the statement she gave police that morning. She then acknowledged that Abernathy told her "the dog made him mad. He was fighting with his girlfriend and that was the reason he killed the dog." She said Abernathy told her he would be "in real trouble" if she called the police. Mariano said she called police but that Abernathy, because of his condition, was initially transported to the St. Jude Hospital emergency room. "At the hospital, he said he heard voices," defense attorney Morrissey said. Copyright 2004 by NBC4.tv. All rights reserved. Reprinted for educational purposes only.

Response:

Bloody Neighbors

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is not the fact that there are more Muslims attending Islamic services in mosques in England than there are Anglicans attending services in THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND, at least a little bit troubling to you?  Nope. Not in the slightest, especially since A. I’m not a Christian B. none of my devoutly Christian friends and family, on either side of the pond, are COE/Espicopal C. I’m intelligent enough to understand that Muslim does not = terrorist. Of course it doesn’t.  But if you still think Islam is a religion of peace, then you’re going to wake up one day in the not so distant future and wonder where your culture went, no matter what it presently constitutes. Any of the books (or writings) by Bernard Lewis, Fareed Zakaria, Walid Phares, Daniel Pipes, Salmon Rushdie, Fuad Ajami, David Pryce-Jones, et al. can spell it out for you in great detail, if you’re really interested — and you should be. — Handsome Jack Morrison

Yeah. JUST LIKE THIS: Here’s lyingdogDUMMY BEATIN a dog to HOWEsbreak IT. But FIRST, a little good KOEHLER trainin:  Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider. "If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.) In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him." "Housebreaking Problems: "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" , Howell Book House, 1996" Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him. "Handsome Jack Morrison"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Never mind dogman You too?  Some folks just never learn. Uh huh One of the signs of mental illness is to say "Uh huh" a lot. PS: If the "trainer" you were talking about isn’t on this list, he (or she) is NOT an approved Koehler trainer, no matter how loud you scream otherwise. May I laugh again?  LOL!  One doesn’t need to be on a list to use Koehlers methods or teach his methods. Let me be among the first (apparently) to tell you that not every trainer who uses a leash is a *Koehler* trainer. Sheesh. This person may call herself a Koehler trainer, but if she’s hanging 12 week old puppies, she’s about as far from a Koehler trainer as a dog trainer can possibly be. Again, this is just your IGNORANCE showing. I can call myself a devout Christian, but if I’m not adhering to the doctrine, I’m something else. http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/patoflearn.html Sorry, the very first sentences make me aware that whoever wrote it knows nothing about PR based training: "Amidst the current (and politically correct) trend in Positive Reinforcement Only training systems" You cannot use PR only. Au contraire.  Many, many posters to r.p.d.b. (and many other places as well) *claim* that they use nothing but R. You know, the PPers. And they do it quite loudly, too. Surely you aren’t blind (and deaf), as well as ignorant? Those are hard handicaps to overcome, Dogstar. And if you knew anything about PR BASED training, you would realize that.  It’s not all cookies and babytalk. There is no stronger supporter of R than Handsome Jack Morrison, but I also use every behavioral tool in my bag, including R-, P, and P-, because I know that even R has its limits. You’d know that too, if you didn’t have your head in the sand. But that seems to be the battle cry of the Koehler-ites. The Koehlerites have no battle cry. They have behaviorism on their side, and that’s more than enough. I don’t need instruction on how to give my dogs a proper leash correction as I do not rely on a leash to control or teach my dog. That may or may not be suitable for your needs, but it’s not suitable for the majority of dog owners, especially since the advent of leash laws. Besides, after just a few weeks of proper Koehler training, Koehler dogs likewise are no longer in need of a leash. That you apparently don’t know that, once again shows me just how ignorant of anything to do with Koehler you are. My last two dogs have been trained offleash right from the start, using rewards for what I like, and nothing for what I don’t like. Good for you, and if that level of training is good enough for you, fine.  But it’s not good enough for many of the rest of us. Again, I’m not saying Koehler doesn’t work. I really have no idea what you’re saying anymore, because you apparently know so damn little about Koehler and behavioral principles in general that it’s hard to have an informed discussion with you. PS: It boggles my mind at how stupid you must be to keep denying that those certain harsh methods are only for LAST RESORT situations, intended only to SAVE A DOG’S LIFE, even after I’ve repeatedly given you direct *quotes* from Koehler’s book saying just that. It’s like you don’t even care how stupid people think you are, or how devious you are, etc.  That can’t help your cause any.  You’d think that you’d at least want to *appear* to be honest, even if you’re not. — Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail

"Handsome Jack Morrison"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good books huh? Absolutely.  Some are, in fact, classics. Which idea was your favorite, the one where they tell you to alpha roll a "dominant" dog, There’s nothing inherently wrong with rolling a dog (i.e., it *can* and *does* work in *some* situations). Unfortunately, most people either do it incorrectly, do it at the wrong time, etc. or where they tell you that you didn’t hit him hard enough if he doesn’t yelp or approaches you within 5 minutes of his punishment? If physical discipline is deemed necessary (after careful evaluation), it’s much more cruel not to get it over with quickly than it is to do it incrementally and half-heartedly, which usually only invites the need for even more discipline. Maybe you liked when they recommend these beatings for housebreaking accidents, chewing/destructive behavior, stealing, trying to get on your bed at night and dog on dog aggression. At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does *not* constitute a "beating." I’m sorry if you don’t agree. And each of those behavior "problems" needs to be looked at in its proper context.  A quote from the Monks: "We repeat, these situations may

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Response:

Just call AC and tell them your dogs mauled a neighbor’s dog and you need to kill it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it something you could call animal control about? nope.  unfortunately, our county doesn’t have *any* sort of animal control.  if you want to get rid of a dog on your property, your options are to shoot it or catch it and take it to the neighboring county’s AC.  charming, eh? — shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott & harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette This is an impressive crowd, the haves and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite. I call you my base. — George W. Bush, Al Smith Memorial Dinner, New York NY

10/19/2000

Response:

Of curse you could have TRAINED your dogs not to attack your neighbor’s dog and you coulda trained your neighbor’s dog not to come through your fence… Ooops! The Puppy Wizard almost FORGOT. You don’t know HOWE to train your dogs not to be viciHOWES.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t now whether Peach is dead or alive. I do know she’s not here with us. I really can’t blame anyone here for her loss. I’m the one who ignored your advice. I did it because of how you write/wrote. I was unwilling to accept the idea that my using a shock collar could have any bearing on Peach not wanting to stay home. Up until I started using it my main concern had been keeping my dogs in their own yard. Once I started using the e-fence…well, then my concern became how to keep them from running off for days on end. I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled in the anti-shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades. I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the world now <g A Wits End Trained dog, one who is completely housetrained, doesn’t chew up stuff, stays in the yard, and doesn’t bark all the time. IOW a great companion and friend. Thanks Jerry!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two dogs, two collars We now have one dog and no collars. Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come back in the yard and would run for days. The last time, Peach didn’t come back home. I used the Wit’s End Training Manual to learn how to train my dog. She is now border trained. A few minutes each day reinforces her desire to stay in the yard. She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes when we walk around the yard. I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the e-fence and its collars. If you can’t get a regular fence then you need to train your dog. I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my dog in our yard again. The price was too high:-( ~misty

The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ )  

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Shelly… I see the trolls are out today. yeah, Silly Willy is out most every day.  ain’t he charming? and *so* articulate. Hmm… what I would do is call the neighbor, ask how the dog is doing and offer to take the dog to the emergency vet at your expense that’s the problem.  i *would* have taken the dog to the emergency vet, but there is no such thing here.  there is emergency service for established patients only.  if they want their dog seen by a vet, they have to take it themselves. (yeah, it’s mainly her fault for not properly containing her dog, but it was your dogs who did the damage). under Indiana law, it was entirely their fault.  they didn’t contain their dog. If that dog goes into shock or gets severely infected and, god forbid, dies, depending upon the laws where you live, your dogs could be declared dangerous or vicious. i’m not worried about legal ramifications.  there aren’t any local vicious dog laws that apply to this sort of situation. That’s no picnic. Your neighbors may be complacent now, but if the dog dies, that could change in a heartbeat. it could.  what makes me feel even worse is the the dog actually belongs to their daughter, who has some serious health and psychological problems (multiple strokes and suicide attempts).  i worry more about how, if her dog *is* seriously hurt, she’ll deal with it. they’ve all got a lot on their plates, and i feel for them.  i’m also frustrated, because this could so easily have been avoided. Next thing to do is to secure your fence so no small critters can get in. Chicken wire is cheap – you could run that along the bottom two feet of your fence. yes.  i’ve done that already for a good portion of the fence, to keep my own dog from digging out. So sorry you had to go through this! How awful for you. thanks.  i’ve been alternating between fury at them for letting their dog roam and feeling sick at their dog having to go through what happened to him.  it’s just not right. — shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott & harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette It was amazing I won. I was running against peace and prosperity and incumbency. — George W. Bush, Gothenberg, Sweden 6/14/2001

Response:

HOWEDY shelly, You mean your neighbor’s dog deserves better than to have your dogs rip him to shreds. Of curse either you or your neighbor coulda TRAINED the dog not to come through your fence and you coulda trained your dogs not to attack your neighbor’s dog. But of curse. you don’t know HOWE to do that. Then you blame your neighbor for YOU being their neighbor. Brilliant. The Puppy Wizard. <{}; ~  )  

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t now whether Peach is dead or alive. I do know she’s not here with us. I really can’t blame anyone here for her loss. I’m the one who ignored your advice. I did it because of how you write/wrote. I was unwilling to accept the idea that my using a shock collar could have any bearing on Peach not wanting to stay home. Up until I started using it my main concern had been keeping my dogs in their own yard. Once I started using the e-fence…well, then my concern became how to keep them from running off for days on end. I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled in the anti- shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades. I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the world now <g A Wits End Trained dog, one who is completely housetrained, doesn’t chew up stuff, stays in the yard, and doesn’t bark all the time. IOW a great companion and friend. Thanks Jerry!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two dogs, two collars We now have one dog and no collars. Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come back in the yard and would run for days. The last time, Peach didn’t come back home. I used the Wit’s End Training Manual to learn how to train my dog. She is now border trained. A few minutes each day reinforces her desire to stay in the yard. She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes when we walk around the yard. I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the e-fence and its collars. If you can’t get a regular fence then you need to train your dog. I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my dog in our yard again. The price was too high:-( ~misty

Here’s a discussion I just had with Nevyn, who wrote in here about four weeks ago with some dog aggression problems and THEN some. Never give out your password or credit card number in an instant message conversation. Nevyn says: hello Jerry. Jerry says: HOWEDY Nevyn Nevyn says: How are you? Jerry says: sup? Nevyn says: Oh nothing Nevyn says: My dogs are alot better now! Jerry says: fine Jerry says: tell me Nevyn says: I can walk them on or off the leash and they don’t give a % about other dogs Jerry says: naah Nevyn says: I can let them inside and they wont eat the cats Jerry says: naah Nevyn says: Yup Jerry says: what did you do, buy a shock collar? Nevyn says: No Nevyn says: Praised them Jerry says: ahh! Jerry says: you think they’re 100% better Nevyn says: ‘cept they still bark at the neighbour but only coz he swears at them and pours water on them Nevyn says: nahh they still have stinky breath! Nevyn says: muahaha Jerry says: ok Jerry says: I’ll go for that Jerry says: it’ll take a couple more days to break the neighbor thing if you’re consistent Jerry says: then he won’t swear and throw water at them Nevyn says: yeah but he’s only out on the weekends Jerry says: but they’ll still have stinky breath Nevyn says: muahahaha Jerry says: you gonna write the group and tell them they’re suckin hind teat? Nevyn says: eh Nevyn says: nah Nevyn says: cant Nevyn says: my news server isn’t workin Nevyn says: how about u just screenshot or copy this chat and post it Jerry says: why not. Nevyn says: sorry been tryin all day to get on the news server Jerry says: you got anything you’d like to tell the dog lovers who would prefer to see you choke and shock and lock your dogs in a box? Jerry says: I guess you don’t want to tell them nuthin that they don’t already know, huh? Nevyn says: hah Nevyn says: tell them they’re fuckers who need to die Nevyn says: dogs aren’t for abusing they are for loving they love so much Jerry says: that’s HOWE COME they got me now Jerry says: howe much training time did it take for the two of ‘em? Nevyn says: pfftt Nevyn says: it didn’t even seem like training Nevyn says: its been 24 days since I got your manual Jerry says: pfffttt!!!! Jerry says: hhahahahaha Jerry says: have you got that feeling that they’re in tune with EVERYTHING you’re wanting them to do? Jerry says: I forgot what city you’re in. Jerry says: maybe if you’re near alphalpha sweeny you can swing by and LAUGH your ass off at him growling at his dogs??? Jerry says: BWWWHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! Nevyn says: LOL Nevyn says: I’m in Perth, Australia! Nevyn says: and yes they do seem to be in tune Nevyn says: oh!! the other day my dogs went into submissive position when a tiny little toy poodle came up barking at them! !LOL Jerry says: EXCELLENT! Nevyn says: lol Jerry says: they knew they didn’t need to fight, cause everything was in your expert control. Keep up the good work. j;~)

Hi There Jerry Its Nevyn. Sorry Ive not been posting, but these lying scum buckets like Alphuck Sweeny and such really piss me off; And Ive been working weekend work at the tracks with the greyhounds (thanks to you!). Well my dogs are the envy of all on my street. I can have them out in the yard with me, take them walking without a leash, they will do any command with no hesitation. And they don’t bark anymore! Thanks to your machine! Oh yeah, I loaned your machine to several friends and family — Here are some reports: "I would say my dogs are well trained, but they suffer severe anxiety when no body is home. This machine quietened them almost instantly – still they barked, in the beginning, but just one or two barks. Then slowly they just stopped… beginning to bark, then instantly stopping. It took only 2 weeks, and we did nothing. Truly amazing; I have recommomeded it to my family, and perhaps they will buy one. Its a shame you don’t sell them publicly". — Kylie, 30, on dogs Lili (11 yr mutt bitch) and Sheeba (4 yr Rotty X) "My two dogs barked insanely when someone would go past. With this little machine they quietened right down, and even became partly obedient, and we did nothing! Great stuff. We ran it only on the lowest setting, too!" – Ed, 65, on his two male Dobermans, 5 yrs old. Well I have some more, and am collecting more, but I only have one machine so its a slow process. Once again I say thankyou Jerry! My family was on the verge of giving them up! But no longer Hello I have two mungrel females; the breeds exactly are Blue Heeler (spots) x Kelpi (dominant genes) x American Pitbull (behavioural) x Pug (don’t laugh!). They are gentle loving dogs when I’m at home with them, and they are friendly with unknown people. They are sisters. One is obviously dominant over the other, and I don’t have a problem with that, however; Their behaviour is very odd. Some days they are very good whilst I’m walking them, some days they are not. They are 3 years old and have only been walking for about 12 months because my mom didn’t walk them and now I’m home so I walk them for about an hour and half every afternoon. I take them to the park where they chase birds and swim in the lake. This is my problem : The less-dominant dog viscously barks at every other dog we walk past; I have tried using a stick and giving her a tap when she does it, and treating her with treats when she doesn’t, using a choke chain, a muzzle and a thing that sprays stuff in her mouth when she barks. She won’t stop! Does anyone know how I can stop her? ] Also, the more-dominant dog seems to know this is WRONG, when the other dog barks, she doesn’t bark, but she nips at the other dog as if telling her to cut it out, and then the barking one attacks the more-dominant one and they fight on the leash… it is quite disturbing to the people walking past. And also the more-dominant one is okay around other dogs… SOMETIMES… sometimes she completely ignores them, and yet other times she will attack them, like yesterday. The less dominant one I must keep on a leash if a person brings there dog to the park. How do I stop them attacking other dogs? I have tried all the methods I have used above for 10 months every afternoon. Is it just a pac k-behaviour thing? It can really be quite embarrassing when your dogs attack some old lady’s or little girl’s dog. They are good dogs, when at home or when there are no other dogs around. Today there were hundreds of sparrows flying around the park and they were chasing them and jumping up trying to catch them for more than 90 minutes (They went straight to bed when I bought them home!). Can anyone help this list is tooo crowded. Thanks, Nevyn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve posted before about my neighbors who let their little dog run loose–their little dog who can easily slip into my yard. hrmph.  this morning i let my dogs out for a quick pee before breakfast, and *thought* they’d cornered another rabit in the thickety far end of the yard.  no, they’d cornered the neighbor’s dog.  i got my shoes on in time to find them attempting tug-o-war with him.  i

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Response:

Women have male "friends" for a power trip.

Question:

Jim Summers87 writes: > Once they have a boyfriend that already proves that > they are sexy …

Only to the boyfriend under consideration. — Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Response:

Jim Summers87 writes: > My brother who was a High School student only a few years ago told me all > about it.

Does misogyny run in the family? — Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Response:

>Only to the boyfriend under consideration.

  That should be enough. No one needs to be desired by everyone in the world. They should stop acting like celebrities.

Response:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:12:30 +0100, Mxsmanic <mxsma…@hotmail.com> wrote: >Jim Summers87 writes: >> My brother who was a High School student only a few years ago told me all >> about it. >Does misogyny run in the family?

Yah, starting with daddy. Daddy’s sexual prowess has left his boys wanting. lm

Response:

On 19 Jan 2004 18:17:58 GMT, jimsummer…@aol.com (Jim Summers87) wrote: >>Only to the boyfriend under consideration. >  That should be enough. No one needs to be desired by everyone in the world. >They should stop acting like celebrities.

Ummm … allow me to rephrase that: There is no point in someone attempting to attract others if they already HAVE someone for a relationship. Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– I’m not a man I’m not a beast I’m about as shapeless as the Man in the Moon!                                          - Quasimodo

Response:

>Ummm … allow me to rephrase that: There is no point in someone >attempting to attract others if they already HAVE someone for a relationship.

  Yes, that’s what I’m trying to say. If I had a girlfriend I certainly wouldn’t be trying to attract other women.

Response:

<jimmys jealous rant snipped> jimsummer…@aol.com (Jim Summers87) wrote in message <news:20040119010859.26465.00000323@mb-m07.aol.com>… >    It’s a power game for the woman. It gives her more men to toy with and > control for her ego..

not all women…you mean just you >     Do you agree? If not, why not??

relationships based on playing head games and attempting to make each other jealous by using other people usually do not last. you can ask danelly for her opinion on this. she tried to get her then bf jealous by flirting and having sex with as many men as possible in front of him in order to get him jealous and make him want her but all it did in the end was break his trust in her. audrey

Response:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:10:13 -0600, Solitary Soul <solitarysoulNOS…@ev1.net> wrote: >Jim … Do you have any friends?

Come on Jim – I want to know about your friends. How many do you have? What do you do together?  … and how often? Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– I’m not a man I’m not a beast I’m about as shapeless as the Man in the Moon!                                          - Quasimodo

Response:

"Pumpkinhead" <pumpkin_head060…@hotmail.com> wrote in message <news:AgOOb.15257$OA3.5920605@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>… > > > I have already seen numerous times in which a guy tolerated > > > his girlfriend having 5 male "friends" and then he > > > later found out that she was fucking 3 of them!!! > > So?  Girlfriends don’t need a man’s permission before they can have > > boyfriends, and they can have sex with anyone they want.  Why does this > > disturb you, and why do you feel that women don’t have these rights? > Do you have any perception of right and wrong? > > Why would I want the upper hand on women?  What’s wrong with equality? > Because they want the upper hand on men.  One way for equality to be > achieved now is for men to want the upper hand on women.

No, dumbass! They way of equality is not to play fucking power games. And don’t let them get played on you. Rob

Response:

>Come on Jim – I want to know about your friends. >How many do you have? >What do you do together? > … and how often? >Solitary Soul ->

  I don’t have any friends. I had 2 friends about 6 years ago but I got rid of them. They had too much negative energy. One of them became a fanatical Nazi and the other one was a bitter fat guy who picked a lot of fights with people and needed to always be the center of attention. He started taking out his failures with women on everyone else around him..

Response:

>Could you explain what this ’study’ consisted of? >Do you base this theory on what you have read online, or even just >observations of your female family members?

  My brother who was a High School student only a few years ago told me all about it. He said that every girl was collecting as many male "friends" as possible and that of course every single one of these guys wanted to have sex with the girl but they hid it behind this "friend" cover. The girls would also select guys that were "Cute" in order to keep them close to cheat on their boyfriend with them or to at least threaten the boyfriend’s stability. I have personally seen it myself. I also asked my father and my uncle about this female and male "friend" business and they said it didn’t even exist until the 1980’s..they say it’s a scam too…

Response:

> No, dumbass! They way of equality is not to play fucking power games. > And don’t let them get played on you.

They get played on you whether you like it or not.  You’re only choices are to sit back and let them take the piss or to put them in their place.  i.e. treat them like they treat you.

Response:

Pumpkinhead writes: > Do you have any perception of right and wrong?

One cannot perceive right and wrong, as they have no objective existence.  One can have moral standards; however, no moral standards have objective or absolute validity. Why do you ask? > Because they want the upper hand on men.

No, they don’t, except perhaps for the tiny handful who hate men as much as men in this newsgroup seem to hate women. — Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Response:

Jim … Do you have any friends? Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– I’m not a man I’m not a beast I’m about as shapeless as the Man in the Moon!                                          - Quasimodo

Response:

> > I have already seen numerous times in which a guy tolerated > > his girlfriend having 5 male "friends" and then he > > later found out that she was fucking 3 of them!!! > So?  Girlfriends don’t need a man’s permission before they can have > boyfriends, and they can have sex with anyone they want.  Why does this > disturb you, and why do you feel that women don’t have these rights?

Do you have any perception of right and wrong? > Why would I want the upper hand on women?  What’s wrong with equality?

Because they want the upper hand on men.  One way for equality to be achieved now is for men to want the upper hand on women.

Response:

"Jim Summers87" <jimsummer…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20040119010859.26465.00000323@mb-m07.aol.com… >   I have studied the youth culture (18-25)

Could you explain what this ’study’ consisted of? Do you base this theory on what you have read online, or even just observations of your female family members? Because IIRC, you don’t have much contact with women IRL- especially those in that age range. I would be curious to know where this theory came from- what facts do you have to go by?

Response:

bleh why did i just read this whole damn thing jimsummer…@aol.com (Jim Summers87) wrote in news:20040119010859.26465.00000323@mb-m07.aol.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> *snip*

Response:

mevyhetal <n…@spam.ok> wrote in news:Xns94756EF92DBF1nospamok@68.1.17.6: > bleh why did i just read this whole damn thing

*spit-take*

Response:

"serendipity" <vicky…@msn.com> wrote in message <news:bugbj6$hfcb1$1@ID-197275.news.uni-berlin.de>… > "Jim Summers87" <jimsummer…@aol.com> wrote in message > news:20040119010859.26465.00000323@mb-m07.aol.com… > >   I have studied the youth culture (18-25) > Could you explain what this ’study’ consisted of? > Do you base this theory on what you have read online, or even just > observations of your female family members? > Because IIRC, you don’t have much contact with women IRL- especially those > in that age range. > I would be curious to know where this theory came from- what facts do you > have to go by?

He doesn’t "study" anything in a systematic fashion. He’s as much an intellectual phoney as he is every other kind. He is only capable of taking the most negative view of women. His is the philosophy of personal failure. And it’s got to be "somebody else’s fault." It can’t be him. He’s not a totally screwed up person who spends all his time on the internet attacking women – no not HIM! He is not only the "blind" attempting to "lead the blind". He’s the blind, deaf, dumb, and retarded attempting to lead them! Rob

Response:

>What you call power I would interpret as self-confidence.  A woman wants to >feel sexy and hot, why do you think they spend vast amounts on cosmetics, >clothing, shoes, cosmetic surgery, etc.?  

   Once they have a boyfriend that already proves that they are sexy..that should be enough…why do they have to trigger lust in every man in the world? I’m sorry, but that’s just excessive and egotistical. Once they have a boyfriend or husband it should be Game Over.

Response:

>Basically, women >want friends to snare in their "power orbit" but will never have sex with >them, yet here you are saying that women will have sex with their friends. >Huh?  I don’t follow what your point is.

  Women want whatever they decide to want at that very second. Refuse to play that game and force them to make decisions or bail out to punish them for their ridiculous abusive behavior. The point is…the "maybe you are a friend, maybe you are not" is psychological control. It’s a power trip….

Response:

>No.  Because all this nonsense is coming from the mind of someone who has >absolutely no experience or knowledge of the field he is talking about.

  I saw my married sister bring in a male "friend" when her husband wasn’t spending enough money on her and suddenly after the husband folded and gave her what she wanted, the "friend" disappeared..don’t tell me that I haven’t seen it before, because I have…you just don’t get female psychology. Everything with women is a power struggle on a giant chess board.

Response:

Jim Summers87 writes: > Women are addicted to this psychological torture of males.. > they love to hold the apple in front of the hungry man’s > face and then pull it away.

Your viewpoint is highly unusual. Women do not generally torture men in this way.  A small handful might, but there are also men who do the same thing to women, so it evens out, and in any case it’s a marginal practice. > Why do you guys tolerate this shit?

It’s easy to tolerate something that exists only in the minds of others. Women are not "torturing" men as you believe.  Thus, it is easy for other men to "tolerate" this nonexistent torture. > Why don’t you start calling it what it > is? It’s deviousness that feeds female power.

My platonic relationships with women are just friendship, not power plays.  I’m not sexually interested in many of them, so it would be impossible for them to "torture" me in the way you describe even if they wished to do so. > I have already seen numerous times in which a guy tolerated > his girlfriend having 5 male "friends" and then he > later found out that she was fucking 3 of them!!!

So?  Girlfriends don’t need a man’s permission before they can have boyfriends, and they can have sex with anyone they want.  Why does this disturb you, and why do you feel that women don’t have these rights? > Jesus Christ, first of all, don’t sit around and be her > little pawn..if a girl won’t date you, stop associating > with her!!

Why? > Don’t give her the satisfaction of remaining within her > power orbit…women would hate this..their game would be up…

What power orbit?  We’re just friends. > The worst person of all here on this "friend" thing is ImJustOne…this > poor sucker has been the victim of dozens of female control power trips and he > just crawls back for more…he apparently likes punishing himself because he > doesn’t learn from experience.

Maybe he sees women as something other than sex objects. > Really guys, you’ve got to start thinking like a woman …

I do, which is why your rant seems extremely irrational and surrealistic to me.  It doesn’t correlate well at all with the way women really think or behave. > …now that’s how to get the upper hand on women!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why would I want the upper hand on women?  What’s wrong with equality? > Do you agree?

No. > If not, why not??

You provide absolutely no evidence for your position, and it conflicts with the totality of all research I’ve encountered, all of my discussions with women, and all of my own experience.  Nothing supports your position except your own word, and I’m unwilling to believe anything based on your word alone.  Additionally, your opinion is very extreme, and I know from experience that the more extreme an opinion, the less likely it is to be congruent with reality. — Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Response:

"Jim Summers87" <jimsummer…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20040119010859.26465.00000323@mb-m07.aol.com… >   I have studied the youth culture (18-25) and I’ve seen it in action and let > me tell you that the first reality of it is that this tactic where women > collect these male "friends" is just for a power trip. This is all dishonest > scheming.

"Studied"—-> JimSpeak for countless hours spent shuffling through alt.support.shyness and soc.men.  You need to provide hard evidence or your arguments will not be taken seriously.  Maybe if you shared an actual experience or two in which you had an interaction with one of these supposed "scheming" women you speak of, perhaps your rants would have some substance. Jim, when was the last time you interacted with a woman?  And I mean a real, substantive interaction, maybe even a relationship, not some girl who said 2 sentences to you in class. >   Let me explain…"friends" is a category where women place a guy so that they > can keep him within her power orbit. A male "friend" is someone whom the girl > can play head games with..she can flirt with him one day sexually and then the > next day she can say, "I was just kidding"..and of course the entire time she > has a boyfriend…

Men do the exact same thing with women.  People just do it for fun, it’s a healthy way to interact with others.  I’ve recently tried flirting with women, and it has been a good way of desensitizing myself to social interaction.  You should try it, you have nothing to lose. >   Women are addicted to this psychological torture of males..they love to hold > the apple in front of the hungry man’s face and then pull it away. Now of > course how could she psychologically abuse him if he didn’t remain close?? And > therefore he becomes a "friend" which is of course only what SHE wanted…once > again, power and control….the other truly sick way in which women use these > "friends" is by constantly waving them in the face of the current boyfriend. > She is saying to the current boyfriend, "Look at how many men want me..I can > leave you at anytime so you better serve me or else."

What you call power I would interpret as self-confidence.  A woman wants to feel sexy and hot, why do you think they spend vast amounts on cosmetics, clothing, shoes, cosmetic surgery, etc.?  Society places such high demands on a woman’s physical appearance that it is something women have to deal with since they are toddlers.  This is similar to the way men are expected to be the bread winners, and all our lives we work hard to make a decent living and be the "provider." >    This is further revealed to be the evil trickery that it is based on the > fact that these girls are not stupid…they fully know that these so-called > "friends" have been trying to fuck her and of course push the boyfriend out of > the way.

Friendship between sexes doesn’t always have to be sexual. >    Why do you guys tolerate this shit? Why don’t you start calling it what it > is? It’s deviousness that feeds female power.

That last sentence makes no sense. >     And don’t give me your bullshit either. I have already seen numerous times > in which a guy tolerated his girlfriend having 5 male "friends" and then he > later found out that she was fucking 3 of them!!! Jesus Christ, first of all, > don’t sit around and be her little pawn..if a girl won’t date you, stop > associating with her!! Don’t give her the satisfaction of remaining within her > power orbit…women would hate this..their game would be up…

Without further details about the couple or the nature of their relationship we really can’t make any judgement about what happened.  In addition, this contradicts everything you have said up to this point:  Basically, women want friends to snare in their "power orbit" but will never have sex with them, yet here you are saying that women will have sex with their friends. Huh?  I don’t follow what your point is. >      Even Darkfalz who once said that he was looking for a female friend just > to end his loneliness..just imagine how this girl would behave around him..she > would be hiking up her skirt and bending over in front of him to tease him > sexually…face it, women don’t respect any relationship and they aren’t > morally capable of having boundaries. If a woman can’t have some sort of > psychological control over someone, they lose interest. They feed on this > control like a drug.

You are overgeneralizing. >      The worst person of all here on this "friend" thing is ImJustOne…this > poor sucker has been the victim of dozens of female control power trips and he > just crawls back for more…he apparently likes punishing himself because he > doesn’t learn from experience. Females have trouble keeping up with him, they > have to create new power games to try out on him because he has already fallen > for every single one of them in their first handbook…LOL

Why do I get dragged into this?  I have only been in relationships with 4 women (not "dozens"), and they were very deep, intimate and beautiful relationships that were more than just power trips.  Each time I felt that I had found someone with whom I could bare my soul to and fall in love with, but was disappointed each time for different reasons.  One time it was incompatibility, another time it was just one of those situations where we met each other at a bad time.  It hurt a lot to lose those people from my life, but you have to accept that not love won’t just fall into your hand. You think it is funny to point a finger at me and laugh, but at least I have made the effort to interact with women.  What have you done with your own life?  Stop criticizing others and take a long, hard look at where your life is going.  Spending all day in front of the computer writing inane essays about how women are evil.  Is this how you want to spend the rest of your life?  You assert some sort of expertise in female psychology yet have never been in one single relationship.  Stop the nonsense and take 5 minutes and examine your life, please. >       Slow down, give the ladies time to invent new ways to fool you!

You are only fooling yourself. >       Really guys, you’ve got to start thinking like a woman, get into their > head..out-woman the women….look at what the great spies of the Cold War > did….they would mentally become the enemy, they would know their enemy from > the inside out…A CIA operative in the late 1950’s thought like a Soviet…he > knew what they would do before they even did it…now that’s how to get the > upper hand on women!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I see we have a little editing error here.  Is this something you’ve copy-pasted from a long rant you’ve spent hours working on or have you plagarized some other incompetent’s ramblings? > as a pressure tactic against the current boyfriend. The girl surrounds her > boyfriend with these enemies which she disguises as friends but we all know > that most of them want to have sex with her, so cut the crap and just admit > what "friends" is… >    It’s a power game for the woman. It gives her more men to toy with and > control for her ego.. >     Do you agree? If not, why not??

No.  Because all this nonsense is coming from the mind of someone who has absolutely no experience or knowledge of the field he is talking about.

Response:

  I have studied the youth culture (18-25) and I’ve seen it in action and let me tell you that the first reality of it is that this tactic where women collect these male "friends" is just for a power trip. This is all dishonest scheming.   Let me explain…"friends" is a category where women place a guy so that they can keep him within her power orbit. A male "friend" is someone whom the girl can play head games with..she can flirt with him one day sexually and then the next day she can say, "I was just kidding"..and of course the entire time she has a boyfriend…   Women are addicted to this psychological torture of males..they love to hold the apple in front of the hungry man’s face and then pull it away. Now of course how could she psychologically abuse him if he didn’t remain close?? And therefore he becomes a "friend" which is of course only what SHE wanted…once again, power and control….the other truly sick way in which women use these "friends" is by constantly waving them in the face of the current boyfriend. She is saying to the current boyfriend, "Look at how many men want me..I can leave you at anytime so you better serve me or else."    This is further revealed to be the evil trickery that it is based on the fact that these girls are not stupid…they fully know that these so-called "friends" have been trying to fuck her and of course push the boyfriend out of the way.    Why do you guys tolerate this shit? Why don’t you start calling it what it is? It’s deviousness that feeds female power.     And don’t give me your bullshit either. I have already seen numerous times in which a guy tolerated his girlfriend having 5 male "friends" and then he later found out that she was fucking 3 of them!!! Jesus Christ, first of all, don’t sit around and be her little pawn..if a girl won’t date you, stop associating with her!! Don’t give her the satisfaction of remaining within her power orbit…women would hate this..their game would be up…      Even Darkfalz who once said that he was looking for a female friend just to end his loneliness..just imagine how this girl would behave around him..she would be hiking up her skirt and bending over in front of him to tease him sexually…face it, women don’t respect any relationship and they aren’t morally capable of having boundaries. If a woman can’t have some sort of psychological control over someone, they lose interest. They feed on this control like a drug.      The worst person of all here on this "friend" thing is ImJustOne…this poor sucker has been the victim of dozens of female control power trips and he just crawls back for more…he apparently likes punishing himself because he doesn’t learn from experience. Females have trouble keeping up with him, they have to create new power games to try out on him because he has already fallen for every single one of them in their first handbook…LOL       Slow down, give the ladies time to invent new ways to fool you!       Really guys, you’ve got to start thinking like a woman, get into their head..out-woman the women….look at what the great spies of the Cold War did….they would mentally become the enemy, they would know their enemy from the inside out…A CIA operative in the late 1950’s thought like a Soviet…he knew what they would do before they even did it…now that’s how to get the upper hand on women!!!!!!!!!!!!! as a pressure tactic against the current boyfriend. The girl surrounds her boyfriend with these enemies which she disguises as friends but we all know that most of them want to have sex with her, so cut the crap and just admit what "friends" is…    It’s a power game for the woman. It gives her more men to toy with and control for her ego..     Do you agree? If not, why not??

Response:

Are We Permitted to Think?

Question:

Are We Permitted to Think? Does the Qur’an object to thinking and asking questions? Is Islam against thinking and asking? The answer is absolutely: No! i hope more muslims, especially fundamentalists, read this. in madrassas all over pakistan, the ONLY subject children are taught is the qur’an.

Who needs mathmatics when you have allahs final words to man…?

Response:

Are We Permitted to Think?

You misspelt ‘able’.

Response:

Mujahid Does the Qur’an object to thinking and asking questions? Is Islam against thinking and asking? The answer is absolutely: No!

That may be true for the Quran, but it is certainly _not_ true for Islam in general.  Once the Sharia became accepted, Muslim jurists declared that "the gates of ijtihad are closed".  Ijtihad means "independent thought", which is now actively discouraged. — Demosthenes Beware lest in your anxiety to avoid war you obtain a master.

Response:

Are We Permitted to Think? Does the Qur’an object to thinking and asking questions? Is Islam against thinking and asking? The answer is absolutely: No!

You are only allowed to take into account ideas born in the islamic world and you have to avoid to listen whatever kuffars said. This rule is old of many centuries and caused your intellectual, social and economic decline. Islam was and still is the religion that never put hindrances in the face of the people of knowledge, whether they were students or scholars. Rather, Islam encourages research and investigation. The Qur’an is full of so many verses calling upon people to make up their minds and explore the universe and its beauties.

In reality, things work differently from what you imagine. You are educated in a closed culture. Your schools never teach points of view different from Quran. If you speak of other religions, you made it with the scope to ridiculize them. You have put the Quran in the top of your system of knowledges. The Quran (and Hadits) are the organizing tool of all your knowledges. But you do not even notice how the Quran distort the knowledges to fit them in its system. As you are unable of authentic comparison, you live in a closed box, ignoring all things which are happening outside it. Also the incitment to hate unbelievers do not help you at all to listen them. Your convinction to possess the Truth make you to despise all other points of view and make them useless to your eyes. In this way, you DO NOT EVEN WANT to take into account ideas different from the islamic ones. In this way, you do not know in a genuine way what the other religion say, you do not make any comparison among the different systems of knowledge. You believe again that the faith is a method of knowledge better than philosophy and science. Your absolutist conception of the religion made you unable to separate state and religion, so yours societies, politics, economies are suffocated by the incompetence of your mullahs. Islam never said that people should stop asking questions or avoid research.

What happens to a man who obtains conclusions which are in contrast with the Quran with his research? What happens to a writer who do not agree with islam? Sure, they are free to make research and to write what they want, but they are killed. How many writers and reporters have been jailed or killed in the islamic countries? It always says that people should use their minds to realize the existence of God.

Yes, people is allowed to use freely their mind, provided they defend Islam. People are to use the faculties given to them by Allah to think and contemplate upon the heavens and the earth, the remains of the previous nations, the creation around them and see how beautiful all creation is. This is also to realize how great are the favors of Allah and to know that He is the sole Creator of the whole universe.

This in theory, but how things work in practice? Can you speak about evolution? Can you deny the creation? Islam never says: "no" to "whys". It rather teaches us to ask and never leave our minds idle and lazy. It blames those who never use their intellects or those who are silent. Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an what means: *{Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful.}*(Al-A`raf 7:179)

Muslims learn very soon not to make embarrassing questions. They also learn very soon to avoid to express their own opinions. In so many other verses of the Qur’an people are encouraged to ask the people of knowledge. Almighty Allah says what means: *{Ask the followers of the remembrance if ye know not!}*(An-Nahl 16:43)

Provided it is an islamic knowledge! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The Qur’an also reads what means: *{Lo! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of night and day, and the ships which run upon the sea with that which is of use to men, and the water which Allah sendeth down from the sky, thereby reviving the earth after its death, and dispersing all kinds of beasts therein, and [in] the ordinance of the winds, and the clouds obedient between heaven and earth: are signs [of Allah's sovereignty] for people who have sense.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:164) In another verse the Qur’an also reads what means: *{The similitude of the life of the world is only as water which We send down from the sky, then the earth’s growth of that which men and cattle eat mingleth with it till, when the earth hath taken on its ornaments and is embellished, and its people deem that they are masters of it, Our commandment cometh by night or by day and we make it as reaped corn as if it had not flourished yesterday. Thus do We expound the revelations for people who reflect. }*(Yunus 10:24)

You should be able to see what is hidden under these poetical sentences, otherwise you are cheating yourself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The Qur’an tells us about a very interesting story about the Prophet Ibrahim who questioned for an eye witness of the process of quickening the dead. Almighty Allah never punished him for such a request. The Qur’an narrates the story in what means: *{And when Abraham said [unto his Lord]: "My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead." He said: "Dost thou not believe?" Abraham said: "Yea, but [I ask] in order that my heart may be at ease." [His Lord] said: "Take four of the birds and cause them to incline unto thee, then place a part of them on each hill, then call them, they will come to thee in haste. And know that Allah is Mighty, Wise." }*(Al-Baqarah 2:260) However, the Qur’an also teaches us that we, being humans, have limited perceptions. We do not have explanation for everything. Thus, we need to turn to Allah for guidance and turn to the learned people who have better knowledge to give us explanation. This knowledge, which we and they have, is still nothing compared to the infinite knowledge of Allah. Thus, all of us should turn to Him with our questions and attribute any scientific discovery to His grace, because it is Him Who blessed us with this intellect.

So, with the guidance of Allah, you muslims obtain the explanation for everything! A system which give you explanations on everything are named Ideology. We are accustomed to think that no discipline can give us explanations on everything. This is why, we use an articulated system of knowledge based on many disciplines. We have never heard in the history of Islam of any inquisition held for the scholars or scientists.

The inquisition existed because the religion was too much powerful. But Europe fought Inquisition and finally it has been defeated. On the contrary, even today you have a system of religious laws an justice which severely punishes apostasy, heresy, etc. If you want avoiding Inquisition, you need a laic judicial system, ruled by secular magistrates. This is one of the reason you need to separate state and religion. If you want avoiding holy wars, you need a laic government, ruled by secular deputies and ministers. This is another reason you need to separate state and religion. On the contrary, the scholars and inventors were given great respect under the rule of Islam and were placed in high position. We have never heard of someone like Galileo being subject to inquisition because of his discoveries or scientific views.

What are you telling? You are again believing the Earth is flat! I heard of scientist working in islamic societies and killed by muslims. Islam was always for knowledge, reflection and asking more questions so long as these whys are for the purpose of gaining knowledge, getting closer to the truth and the Absolute Truth, Almighty Allah. May Allah grant us knowledge and bring us all closer to Him.

Islam is always for an islamic knowledge only!!! What is damaging you is just the Absolute Truth. You do not even understand that if you find the Absolute Truth, you will become deaf toward any other idea, so your progress in any field will be stopped. and you will keep into middle ages forever. On the contrary, the western societies have understood since many centuries that something like the Absolute Truth or the metaphysical foundation of the world is completely out of reach of men. For this reason, the west has to face a Metaphysical Uncertainty. While you have the Absolute Truth, the western societies are founded on the doubt. So, while the posses of the Absolute Truth removes the necessity to new knowledges, the doubt instead urge us to know every day better the world. Even if the absolute truth is out of reach of science, it can improve its knowledge of the nature every day more. In this way, science approach every day more the reality. This is why the west conquered the Moon, while muslims are living in superstitions and poverty. One of the consequences of the metaphysical uncertainty is the freedom of thinking which is allowed to all western citizens, provided they do not behave against the laws. Sure, it is more difficult to live with the uncertainty than with the Absolute Truth, but we are accustomed to our condition. There is a big difference between the way you perceive Islam and the way it actually is. Logos

Response:

Are We Permitted to Think? Does the Qur’an object to thinking and asking questions? Is Islam against thinking and asking? The answer is absolutely: No! Islam was and still is the religion that never put hindrances in the face of the people of knowledge, whether they were students or scholars. Rather, Islam encourages research and investigation. The Qur’an is full of so many verses calling upon people to make up their minds and explore the universe and its beauties. Islam never said that people should stop asking questions or avoid research. It always says that people should use their minds to realize the existence of God. People are to use the faculties given to them by Allah to think and contemplate upon the heavens and the earth, the remains of the previous nations, the creation around them and see how beautiful all creation is. This is also to realize how great are the favors of Allah and to know that He is the sole Creator of the whole universe. Islam never says: "no" to "whys". It rather teaches us to ask and never leave our minds idle and lazy. It blames those who never use their intellects or those who are silent. Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an what means: *{Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful.}*(Al-A`raf 7:179) In so many other verses of the Qur’an people are encouraged to ask the people of knowledge. Almighty Allah says what means: *{Ask the followers of the remembrance if ye know not!}*(An-Nahl 16:43) The Qur’an also reads what means: *{Lo! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of night and day, and the ships which run upon the sea with that which is of use to men, and the water which Allah sendeth down from the sky, thereby reviving the earth after its death, and dispersing all kinds of beasts therein, and [in] the ordinance of the winds, and the clouds obedient between heaven and earth: are signs [of Allah's sovereignty] for people who have sense.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:164) In another verse the Qur’an also reads what means: *{The similitude of the life of the world is only as water which We send down from the sky, then the earth’s growth of that which men and cattle eat mingleth with it till, when the earth hath taken on its ornaments and is embellished, and its people deem that they are masters of it, Our commandment cometh by night or by day and we make it as reaped corn as if it had not flourished yesterday. Thus do We expound the revelations for people who reflect. }*(Yunus 10:24) The Qur’an tells us about a very interesting story about the Prophet Ibrahim who questioned for an eye witness of the process of quickening the dead. Almighty Allah never punished him for such a request. The Qur’an narrates the story in what means: *{And when Abraham said [unto his Lord]: "My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead." He said: "Dost thou not believe?" Abraham said: "Yea, but [I ask] in order that my heart may be at ease." [His Lord] said: "Take four of the birds and cause them to incline unto thee, then place a part of them on each hill, then call them, they will come to thee in haste. And know that Allah is Mighty, Wise." }*(Al-Baqarah 2:260)

However, the Qur’an also teaches us that we, being humans, have limited perceptions. We do not have explanation for everything. Thus, we need to turn to Allah for guidance and turn to the learned people who have better knowledge to give us explanation. This knowledge, which we and they have, is still nothing compared to the infinite knowledge of Allah. Thus, all of us should turn to Him with our questions and attribute any scientific discovery to His grace, because it is Him Who blessed us with this intellect. We have never heard in the history of Islam of any inquisition held for the scholars or scientists. On the contrary, the scholars and inventors were given great respect under the rule of Islam and were placed in high position. We have never heard of someone like Galileo being subject to inquisition because of his discoveries or scientific views. Islam was always for knowledge, reflection and asking more questions so long as these whys are for the purpose of gaining knowledge, getting closer to the truth and the Absolute Truth, Almighty Allah. May Allah grant us knowledge and bring us all closer to Him. http://www.islamonline.net

Response:

Nice name choice, a fighter – a terrorist.

Response:

Are We Permitted to Think? Does the Qur’an object to thinking and asking questions? Is Islam against thinking and asking? The answer is absolutely: No!

i hope more muslims, especially fundamentalists, read this. in madrassas all over pakistan, the ONLY subject children are taught is the qur’an. to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com" and enter ‘wf3h’ in the field check my blog at: http://www.bobview.blogspot.com/

Response:

OT: Ear Infection Information

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just thought I would share the latest ear infection information I have received from my ENT doctor. Yes, I have ANOTHER ear infection. This time it is my left ear (the deaf one) and it is just as bad as the right was. Ugh.  I have been so good….nothing in my ear at all…it has barely itched or bothered me at all. Not sure why this one got infected. Anyway, I went today to get some Microlog cream in my ear (this is a steroid cream that reduces swelling), I had some put in at the hospital Fri morning and he just added some to it. But, he also told me that your ear canal is mostly acid and when it gets too alkaline you have a breeding ground for bacteria. This must have been what happened to me. Or perhaps my ear canals are just naturally alkaline and prone to infections. I don’t know. He said that it is safe to use the swimmer ear stuff everyday after a shower or swimming to keep your ears dry and also keep the acid level up in them. I have been doing this with my right ear since it healed, and as soon as I can I will be doing it with my left ear too.

I was troubled with those pesky infections for well over a years.  As soon as I stopped the medication, they came back.  And I continued to have them off and on even after I got the steroid cream to put in them.  The difference being that if I had the cream onhand and was able to put it in at first itch, the infection went away instead of getting nasty. Can high bgs cause alkalinity on the skin?

Maybe.  It sure can cause a lot of infections, including boils. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

Response:

I have had much experience with various skin conditions.   In a large number fungus or yeast have been a factor.  Years ago it solved my leg sore problem.  The theory is that the sugar levels provide a good environment. Today my doc almost runs a culture on any problem and addresses the specific culprit. Two people can have a resident pathogen and only one has problems.  That points to allergy problems. If the wrong med is used it can make the problem bigger.  Steroids  help in allergic situations. Altering the PH of an area can help in many cases. Women find this useful in some of their specific problems. I do a short trial to see if my home meds will work,  Then I head for a GOOD doc.   So many variables here. I have a collection of certain meds for some of my chronic conditions where I find what will work.   But because they work for me does not mean they are for you.  It seems I have the problem of the week. Glad you mentioned the PH idea.                                      Guy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just thought I would share the latest ear infection information I have received from my ENT doctor. Yes, I have ANOTHER ear infection. This time it is my left ear (the deaf one) and it is just as bad as the right was. Ugh.  I have been so good….nothing in my ear at all…it has barely itched or bothered me at all. Not sure why this one got infected. Anyway, I went today to get some Microlog cream in my ear (this is a steroid cream that reduces swelling), I had some put in at the hospital Fri morning and he just added some to it. But, he also told me that your ear canal is mostly acid and when it gets too alkaline you have a breeding ground for bacteria. This must have been what happened to me. Or perhaps my ear canals are just naturally alkaline and prone to infections. I don’t know. He said that it is safe to use the swimmer ear stuff everyday after a shower or swimming to keep your ears dry and also keep the acid level up in them. I have been doing this with my right ear since it healed, and as soon as I can I will be doing it with my left ear too. I was troubled with those pesky infections for well over a years.  As soon as I stopped the medication, they came back.  And I continued to have them off and on even after I got the steroid cream to put in them.  The difference being that if I had the cream onhand and was able to put it in at first itch, the infection went away instead of getting nasty. Can high bgs cause alkalinity on the skin? Maybe.  It sure can cause a lot of infections, including boils.

Response:

Just thought I would share the latest ear infection information I have received from my ENT doctor. Yes, I have ANOTHER ear infection. This time it is my left ear (the deaf one) and it is just as bad as the right was. Ugh.  I have been so good….nothing in my ear at all…it has barely itched or bothered me at all. Not sure why this one got infected.

Has the ENT done a swab to identify the offending bug?  Without proper identification you can treat the infection til the cows come home and get nowhere.  Swimmer’s Ear can dry the ear canal too much as well. Nature got it right when it gave us the right tool to keep ears healthy (under normal situations) – wax.  I’d go for the swab though. A friend’s child spent 5 days in ICU with a mastoid infection caused by psuedomonas.  He also has staph aureas and strep C in larger amounts than normal in his body.  Your normal every day broad spectrum antibiotic will not control these bugs.

Response:

Has the ENT done a swab to identify the offending bug?

No he hasn’t. I go back Fri to get the cream rinsed out and I will ask him to do this. I’d like to know what’s causing it. Dana "The leading cause of death among fashion models is  falling through street grates."  ~Dave Barry~

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just thought I would share the latest ear infection information I have received from my ENT doctor. Yes, I have ANOTHER ear infection. This time it is my left ear (the deaf one) and it is just as bad as the right was. Ugh.  I have been so good….nothing in my ear at all…it has barely itched or bothered me at all. Not sure why this one got infected. Anyway, I went today to get some Microlog cream in my ear (this is a steroid cream that reduces swelling), I had some put in at the hospital Fri morning and he just added some to it. But, he also told me that your ear canal is mostly acid and when it gets too alkaline you have a breeding ground for bacteria. This must have been what happened to me. Or perhaps my ear canals are just naturally alkaline and prone to infections. I don’t know. He said that it is safe to use the swimmer ear stuff everyday after a shower or swimming to keep your ears dry and also keep the acid level up in them. I have been doing this with my right ear since it healed, and as soon as I can I will be doing it with my left ear too. Can high bgs cause alkalinity on the skin?

High BGs can provide a friendly growth medium to some types of bacteria.  BJ

Response:

Just thought I would share the latest ear infection information I have received from my ENT doctor. Yes, I have ANOTHER ear infection. This time it is my left ear (the deaf one) and it is just as bad as the right was. Ugh.  I have been so good….nothing in my ear at all…it has barely itched or bothered me at all. Not sure why this one got infected. Anyway, I went today to get some Microlog cream in my ear (this is a steroid cream that reduces swelling), I had some put in at the hospital Fri morning and he just added some to it. But, he also told me that your ear canal is mostly acid and when it gets too alkaline you have a breeding ground for bacteria. This must have been what happened to me. Or perhaps my ear canals are just naturally alkaline and prone to infections. I don’t know. He said that it is safe to use the swimmer ear stuff everyday after a shower or swimming to keep your ears dry and also keep the acid level up in them. I have been doing this with my right ear since it healed, and as soon as I can I will be doing it with my left ear too. Can high bgs cause alkalinity on the skin? Dana "The leading cause of death among fashion models is  falling through street grates."  ~Dave Barry~

Response:

Does anybody wake up at night because of tinnitus?

Question:

>  Hydroxyzine, this an antihistamine? I am looking to cut back or replace my > AD. It’s a mild tablet but I don’t have depression only T. Allways looking > for preferential tabs.

This is Atarax Yes it is a non specific antihistamine. My wife came up with it and got some Docs where she works to cut a script for it. I take what I guess is a fairly small dose at 25mg just before bed. Makes all the difference in the world for me. I am also under the impression that it has very few side effects and/or risks. Robin

Response:

 I am also under the impression that it has very few side effects and/or risks. that is correct. It is quite a safe drug that is used for children tool. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.hydromedonline.com/presentingthehydropulse/

Response:

……it’s also used to potentiate narcotics. "ENTconsult" <entcons…@aol.comnospam> wrote in message

news:20030819105833.21270.00000308@mb-m10.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am also under the impression that it has very few side effects > and/or risks. > that is correct. It is quite a safe drug that is used for children tool. > Murray Grossan, M.D.

Response:

.it’s also used to potentiate narcotics. I don’t know what you mean by this statement. Please explain. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.hydromedonline.com/presentingthehydropulse/

Response:

Russell PSB: N Engl J Med 1984;20:1634. "ENTconsult" <entcons…@aol.comnospam> wrote in message

news:20030820010937.21828.00000212@mb-m17.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> .it’s also used to potentiate narcotics. > I don’t know what you mean by this statement. Please explain. > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com > http://www.hydromedonline.com/presentingthehydropulse/

Response:

On 20 Aug 2003 05:09:37 GMT, entcons…@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote: >Murray Grossan, M.D. >http://www.ent-consult.com >http://www.hydromedonline.com/presentingthehydropulse/

Please stop acting like a shill for nasal products and conduct yourself like a professional, if you can. Martin Aquinas – Civilizations are clashing…will you defend your own or doom your children? "We cannot forget. We cannot forgive … We went through too much. They will have a sentence of their own: Remembrance." Border…Language…Culture….QUICK! America has a "Suicidal Openess" to immigration and it must end or we will fall

Response:

Anxiety wakes you up and then you feel the effects of these symptoms. The symptoms don’t wake you up. "ENTconsult" <entcons…@aol.comnospam> wrote in message

news:20030817160103.12079.00000081@mb-m20.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tinnitus or dizzyness that wakes you up in the night is one of the signs of > acute Meniere’s disease, which is treatable. > Murray Grossan, M.D. > http://www.ent-consult.com > http://www.hydromedonline.com/presentingthehydropulse/

Response:

martinsock ("I’m not reading all messages") raised his snout from the gutter and grunted:- > Oh

oh? no /flush

Response:

"Robin" <rpatr…@Nospam.com> wrote in message

news:LracnboPF5S1a6KiXTWJiA@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I did……… At first I blamed it on "T" and then admitted that it was > stress. Yes my "T" seemed REALLY loud when the house was silent but it > probably was not any more than during the day. > What was happening to me was I would wake up and then my mind would start > and I would start worrying about my business and the like and then blame it > all on "T" for my not getting back to sleep. I now take 25mg of Hydroxyzine > and I sleep much better. I had mis-identified my problem as being "T" but it > is actually stress and now I can deal with it. > I would look at the other symptom, sweating, find it and deal with it and > see if it helps. Why is it happening in the first place…. My wife and I > call them power surges (for her menopause is a bad word ;;-)) > Just sharing my experience, Hope it helps > Robin > <earlt…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:a18324ef.0308161956.4e3950b9@posting.google.com… > > I have had tinnitus for many years. Now I am facing something very > > troubling. I am getting up in the middle of the night with severe > > ringing of the ears. Also sweating. The ringing last for about an > > hour. I stay awake until it quiets down. > > Does anybody else get this?

 Hydroxyzine, this an antihistamine? I am looking to cut back or replace my AD. It’s a mild tablet but I don’t have depression only T. Allways looking for preferential tabs.

Response:

On 18 Aug 2003 02:22:55 GMT, entcons…@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote: >Well Martin, what insults will you come up with if the writer does  turn out to >have Meniere’s and treatment cures him of his tinnitus and restores his >hearing?

Well Muzzle, why not also tell him that his endolymphatic sac could be ruptured and he needs to go to real doctors at the House Clinic as his brain might be undergoing some irreversible changes? Or how about telling him that he could go stone deaf if he doesn’t act quickly because possibly this is genetic and he will need to preserve his hearing in order to get the cochlear implant he might need to hear? You don’t know a thing about his condition and should stop telling people online what "might" be wrong. About all you should say is that he should relate this all to a real doctor in person. > Why don’t you ask the writer which is more helpful, your insane >prattle or meaningful suggestions?

Are you suffering from dementia? Have you had an MRI of the frontal lobes yet to see if any infarcts have appeared? >Maybe you think it is better to leave a treatable condition untreated and >suffer needlessly, but I don’t.

Let’s get out the cross and nail St. Muzzle to it. You self-righteous asshole. >Murray Grossan, M.D. >http://www.ent-consult.com >http://www.hydromedonline.com/presentingthehydropulse/

I can’t find any literature about nasal irrigation helping tinnitus sufferers. So why do you still advertize it here? Martin Aquinas – Civilizations are clashing…will you defend your own or doom your children? "We cannot forget. We cannot forgive … We went through too much. They will have a sentence of their own: Remembrance." Border…Language…Culture….QUICK! America has a "Suicidal Openess" to immigration and it must end or we will fall

Response:

"Oh that’s just great "doctor." Now you have the poor individual thinking they have Meniere’s disease. What  saint you are. " Well Martin, what insults will you come up with if the writer does  turn out to have Meniere’s and treatment cures him of his tinnitus and restores his hearing? Why don’t you ask the writer which is more helpful, your insane prattle or meaningful suggestions? Maybe you think it is better to leave a treatable condition untreated and suffer needlessly, but I don’t. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.hydromedonline.com/presentingthehydropulse/

Response:

On 17 Aug 2003 20:01:03 GMT, entcons…@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote: >Tinnitus or dizzyness that wakes you up in the night is one of the signs of >acute Meniere’s disease, which is treatable.

Oh that’s just great "doctor." Now you have the poor individual thinking they have Meniere’s disease. What  saint you are. "Treatable"? Yes, sometimes. I know two people whose lives are utter disasters and for who treatment did not work. Let me guess. Would a nasal irrigator be part of the treatment. >Murray Grossan, M.D. >http://www.ent-consult.com >http://www.hydromedonline.com/presentingthehydropulse/

Please stop advertizing your nasal products on a tinnitus support group. Or have you written a "peer-reviewed" paper on tinnitus relief via a nasal irrigator? Martin Aquinas – Civilizations are clashing…will you defend your own or doom your children? "We cannot forget. We cannot forgive … We went through too much. They will have a sentence of their own: Remembrance." Border…Language…Culture….QUICK! America has a "Suicidal Openess" to immigration and it must end or we will fall

Response:

I did……… At first I blamed it on "T" and then admitted that it was stress. Yes my "T" seemed REALLY loud when the house was silent but it probably was not any more than during the day. What was happening to me was I would wake up and then my mind would start and I would start worrying about my business and the like and then blame it all on "T" for my not getting back to sleep. I now take 25mg of Hydroxyzine and I sleep much better. I had mis-identified my problem as being "T" but it is actually stress and now I can deal with it. I would look at the other symptom, sweating, find it and deal with it and see if it helps. Why is it happening in the first place…. My wife and I call them power surges (for her menopause is a bad word ;;-)) Just sharing my experience, Hope it helps Robin <earlt…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:a18324ef.0308161956.4e3950b9@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have had tinnitus for many years. Now I am facing something very > troubling. I am getting up in the middle of the night with severe > ringing of the ears. Also sweating. The ringing last for about an > hour. I stay awake until it quiets down. > Does anybody else get this?

Response:

I have had tinnitus for many years. Now I am facing something very troubling. I am getting up in the middle of the night with severe ringing of the ears. Also sweating. The ringing last for about an hour. I stay awake until it quiets down. Does anybody else get this?

Response:

On 16 Aug 2003 20:56:53 -0700, earlt…@yahoo.com wrote: > I am getting up in the middle of the night with severe >ringing of the ears. Also sweating.

I’m not a psychiatrist, but I play one here on AST! My tinnitus is pretty bad but it has never woken me up that I can think of. In fact, I don’t know if tinnitus can wake you up or if you are waking up and noticing it after. Since you mentioned sweating it reminds me of a sister in-law that has a health problem who was waking up sweating. After having a mild increase in a benzodiazepine she was fine and it was clear that she was worrying about her mild MS. I read once that the ear is a sucker for the greater of two sounds. When in a quiet environment the sound of something can be perceived as louder. Perhaps your tinnitus is not really elevated at all. Possibly you are becoming fixated on it [easy enough to do] and it is causing your problems. I have had migraines and do biofeedback for them and it helps quite a bit. I never felt the need to do it for my tinnitus, but maybe when the sweating occurs you could try that. It’s pretty easy to do. If your insurance covers it I would go to a practitioner who does it daily and be shown how to do it along with the wiring [forehead and finger if I recall correctly] so you can hear just how you are able to relax. Being shown how your temperature elevates in your hands [opening of blood vessels via relaxation] will give your mind the concrete proof it needs to realize that you can do it and that it is benefiting you. You could also read "The Relaxation Response" by Howard Bentson of Harvard. It’s a short book and should be in your local bookseller. Good luck, Martin

Response:

> I have had tinnitus for many years. Now I am facing something very > troubling. I am getting up in the middle of the night with severe > ringing of the ears. Also sweating. The ringing last for about an > hour. I stay awake until it quiets down.

Something else wake you up.  And then you hear the "T". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Does anybody else get this?

Response:

earlt…@yahoo.com wrote in news:a18324ef.0308161956.4e3950b9 @posting.google.com: > I have had tinnitus for many years. Now I am facing something very > troubling. I am getting up in the middle of the night with severe > ringing of the ears. Also sweating. The ringing last for about an > hour. I stay awake until it quiets down.

You say you wake up and are also sweating. Not saying if you’re male or female (Menopause in women can cause ‘night sweats’), I’d doubt the two are related. > Does anybody else get this?

If I awake I often find, due to very very little background noise, that I hear my ‘T’ more than at others time. Mine is just a constant 12kHz tone that is going all the time, same volume and I can hear it more if I concentrate on it or if I’m really tired and/or stressed. Maybe you need to address why you are waking first? I found having no caffeine after 7pm helps – switch to fruit juice and a rarely occasional beer is better. Also not eating late in the evening helps – and is also good for the figure! I found having a lot of thoughts running in my head meant I was getting into bed and not relaxing so "emptying my head" – often onto paper – helped so I wasn’t thinking of this and that when I should have been nodding off. Leigh….

Response:

Tinnitus or dizzyness that wakes you up in the night is one of the signs of acute Meniere’s disease, which is treatable. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.hydromedonline.com/presentingthehydropulse/

Response:

Why the hassle?

Question:

I am fed up of having to argue or complain to get things done, it seems that this is the only way I can get things done. Nothing I want ever seems to be straight forward or easy. I just don’t understand why it has to be so. More than often the other people end up doing what I wanted them too or giving me what I wanted, so why do I have to fight for it? Why couldn’t it just be simpler and they just give it, when I ask in the first place? Why the hassle? Why? May be I don’t communicate very well, I don’t know.

Response:

I am fed up of having to argue or complain to get things done, it seems that this is the only way I can get things done. Nothing I want ever seems to be straight forward or easy. I just don’t understand why it has to be so. More than often the other people end up doing what I wanted them too or giving me what I wanted, so why do I have to fight for it? Why couldn’t it just be simpler and they just give it, when I ask in the first place? Why the hassle? Why? May be I don’t communicate very well, I don’t know.

Its just how the world works. Regards, NT

Response:

I am fed up of having to argue or complain to get things done, it seems that this is the only way I can get things done. Me too. Nothing I want ever seems to be straight forward or easy. I just don’t understand why it has to be so. More than often the other people end up doing what I wanted them too or giving me what I wanted, so why do I have to fight for it? Why couldn’t it just be simpler and they just give it, when I ask in the first place? Why the hassle? Why? May be I don’t communicate very well, I don’t know.

  It’s not us. This is a culture which at heart believes in one size fits all unless someone firmly says repeatedly it doesn’t fit me. One reason they think this is different ways, accommodations are seen as costly and awkward. Often I find it’s very hard for others to take on board things like the way words, instructions, ATMS are for us. Hidden disabilites are very difficult. If you want to get a bit of a handle on being blind you can try shutting your eyes, deaf, blocking your ears. But if you’re not dyslexic there’s no easy way for a norm to get a handle on what it is like for us, and it doesn’t help that we vary so much. — I am dyslexic and therefore a creative speller!

Response:

I am fed up of having to argue or complain to get things done, it seems that this is the only way I can get things done. Nothing I want ever seems to be straight forward or easy. I just don’t understand why it has to be so. More than often the other people end up doing what I wanted them too or giving me what I wanted, so why do I have to fight for it? Why couldn’t it just be simpler and they just give it, when I ask in the first place? Why the hassle? Why? May be I don’t communicate very well, I don’t know.

Well you seem to have communicated this perfectly well! What sort of things have you had to fight for? CD

Response: